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[Phantom]

One of the reason's I dislike these matchups...


-Plot Armor DE-LUXE on a few characters.
-A fucking Sandworm!? AGAINST A HUMAN BEING!?
-A FUCKING FLYING ROBOTIC HEAD!? COME THE FUCK ON!
-Brenner and his GIANT FUCKING TANK.
-Kamina and his giant ass mech.

[lemon10]

With greater whirlwind, minsc is doing 10 attacks per round, or one every .6 seconds.
With the bonuses on the mace of ages, every hit will do a minimum of 21 damage (5 of the enchantment, 5 for the elemental damage bonuses (assuming his suit was 50% resistant to every type of attack), 1 damage because flails do 1+1d6 (i THINK, might be wrong) and 10 for the strength bonus). This means he will do a minimum of 210 damage per round (or equivalent), more then enough to kill even someone with a exoskeleton outright. I doubt he has the combat training and reflexes required to dodge even one of the attacks, mabey minsc would make a critical failure or two, but he would still be dealing more then enough damage to kill him outright within a single round. And even if he survived a few hits, the flail of ages has a 1/3 chance of slowing (1/2 attack speed, 1/2 move speed, weakens defense) with every hit (irresistible), something that would surely end the battle.

He would also have the boots of speed, so he could run faster then Scar could fairly easily, making any shooting and running attacks by scar useless.
And he would have the reflective shield, which would reflect any bullets which hit it back at scar, so guns would be totally useless against him.
Or he could just turn invisible with the aid of the ring of gax or a potion of invisibility, also rendering bullets useless.

What.
That is a severe underestimation of the Exoskeletons strength.
I went in the damn Symbiont Anomaly in Red Forest and only came out with minor damage to the armor and only needed a few bandages! The Pseudogiant before it was like Minsc, except that 1 ton of muscle didn't help!

So you think the exoskeleton would allow him to win in a melee 1v1 with minsc (someone with the strength of a giant), insane endurance (to the point of being able to take 20 or 30 sniper rifle shots without dying), equipment that allows him to slay demons with ease, and years experience killing monsters and humans with his weapons in close combat?

Exoskeleton is strong, but when compared with belt of fire giant strength, it has NOTHING.

In in-game terms, exoskeleton lets you carry what? another 40 kilos of guns and ammo? Big deal.

Belt of fire giant strength makes you strong enough to pick up and carry something on the order of a ton and a half.

There is a reason that by the end of ToB, you are fighting godlings, dragons, and armies of super-golems made from adamantium. Because no mortal foe can stand up to any D&D charachter of level 20+.

What this fight comes down to is a question is if Scar's sniping is good enough to get past the heavy enchantments on Minsc's armour and do enough damage to him to drop him before he gets to melee range, at which point Minsc wins. Because scar has a dinky little knife for melee, and the exoskeleton, while making him stronger, also slows him. Minsc's enchatments carry no such detriment, and he has years of battlefield experiance in melee combat.

In my opinion, having played both games lovingly and many times, Scar's sniping is good, but not enough to get by magical super armour. Which minsc has. Remember that stupid stupid end sequence of clear sky where we are trying to bring down Strelok's magical bubble shield? Imagine that same thing except that he is charging towards you and will insta-gibb you as soon as he enters melee range. That is this match-up.

Minsc. Hands down.

It doesn't matter how good his sniping did, even if he did 50 damage a shot (somehow) and every shot was a hit, he would still get crushed by minsc before he could bring him down.

[Phantom]

I see why I didn't like this compared to Fight to the Death.


WARNING: RANT INBOUND
Why? The sheer amount of giants and the fact that levels actually mattered rather than combining it with reasonableness. For example in the second one, everyone was matched equally and had a predefined environment. Razor kills a Vindicare rather than a roll determining how much damage and how much damage the Vindicare strikes. Bullets, damn good things, they were actually REASONABLE in that compared to how everyone in this could easily skip those through use of game mechanics. Hell, Egbert was able to beat the man using advanced armor and grenades not due to things like hit points but due to SPEED. All of the Humans in that could be beat by an expert, except some douches like Paul with his invincibility shield bullcarp. None of those damn allies, they get in the way. At least there was reasonable SIZE and things were toned down so it could be fair, Ashot would at least have had a chance against the Giga in that one. Or Kamina versus Brenner.

[iyaerP]

I see why I didn't like this compared to Fight to the Death.


WARNING: RANT INBOUND
Why? The sheer amount of giants and the fact that levels actually mattered rather than combining it with reasonableness. For example in the second one, everyone was matched equally and had a predefined environment. Razor kills a Vindicare rather than a roll determining how much damage and how much damage the Vindicare strikes. Bullets, damn good things, they were actually REASONABLE in that compared to how everyone in this could easily skip those through use of game mechanics. Hell, Egbert was able to beat the man using advanced armor and grenades not due to things like hit points but due to SPEED. All of the Humans in that could be beat by an expert, except some douches like Paul with his invincibility shield bullcarp. None of those damn allies, they get in the way. At least there was reasonable SIZE and things were toned down so it could be fair, Ashot would at least have had a chance against the Giga in that one. Or Kamina versus Brenner.

okay, so provide us with a logical rant as for why scar could take minsc. Sufficient rants have already been provided in minsc's favor clearly outlining his strengths, how do you think scar can do it?

We aren't hating here, we just loooooove us some baldur's gate 2.

And stalker. both are on my fav. game-serieses list. But in this case, I see no reasons minsc wouldn't survive to melee where he would win nearly instantly.

[Phantom]

Frankly, I can't rant on anything that involves hitpoints. The only thing I could argue in Scar's favor compared to Baldur's Gate 2 bonuses is STALKER's Instant heal Medkits. And the fact Scar could hide and stay that way because he never needed to eat. Yeah, that's the best I can do against any damn character that is like a 20+ DnD character. Why? Because apparently Game Mechanics rule here.

[lemon10]

I see why I didn't like this compared to Fight to the Death.


WARNING: RANT INBOUND
Why? The sheer amount of giants and the fact that levels actually mattered rather than combining it with reasonableness. For example in the second one, everyone was matched equally and had a predefined environment. Razor kills a Vindicare rather than a roll determining how much damage and how much damage the Vindicare strikes. Bullets, damn good things, they were actually REASONABLE in that compared to how everyone in this could easily skip those through use of game mechanics. Hell, Egbert was able to beat the man using advanced armor and grenades not due to things like hit points but due to SPEED. All of the Humans in that could be beat by an expert, except some douches like Paul with his invincibility shield bullcarp. None of those damn allies, they get in the way. At least there was reasonable SIZE and things were toned down so it could be fair, Ashot would at least have had a chance against the Giga in that one. Or Kamina versus Brenner.

The problem with this is that due to the range of characters involved and allowed in, we have things such as a giga fortress and entire armies. The allies are pretty bs in this, but i suspect they are in to try to balance up ridiculous fights (instead of just giving it to the person who would clearly win).

Frankly, I can't rant on anything that involves hitpoints. The only thing I could argue in Scar's favor compared to Baldur's Gate 2 bonuses is STALKER's Instant heal Medkits. Yeah, that's the best I can do against any damn character that is like a 20+ DnD character. Why? Because apparently Game Mechanics rule here.

Its not just game mechanics, his attacks are far more damaging then anything you would get in the real world (short of getting a cruise missle to the face). His shield and armor would have no problem stopping any amount of bullets with ease. His combat abilities are godlike. He moves twice as fast as a normal human could run, and can do things no human in the real world can. Its not game mechanics, its him outclassing scar by a order of magnitude.
Remember that naga from the other fight to the death (that was rediculously strong)? Yeah, minsc could kill a dozen of them without any trouble. If full strength minsc was allowed in the second fight, he would curbstomp EVERYONE including paul probably.

[iyaerP]

Since we have clearly defined Minsc as the winner by a VAST margin of power discrepency, let us allow scar to recruit some Dutyers to his cause.

Some exoskelli wearing, Groza-14/VSS/ carrying Dutyers.



Although something that strikes me as really funny? Minsc would get annihilated in the Zone, simply on account of his int being something like 7, the first Controller to so much as glance in his direction would have an unstoppable berzerker zombie clad in magical armour wielding a legendary whirlwind of destruction weapon.

In the underdark, minsc died to mind flayers like 12 times for me. it was..... frustrating.

[Phantom]

Well, if real world logic was allowed SOMEONE would man up and simply strike him in the head with a bullet, possibly tumbling and scrambling up the brain.

Look, I'm saying SCREW THEIR UNIVERSES MOSTLY and blending everything. Or arguing in the support of Scar.


Scar, a prodigy with rifles considered with his choice and the fact that if he wore a SEVA with full impact/rupture, that would trump Minsc eventually, especially with the use of artifacts. Anomalies in the Zone kill STALKER's instantly most of the time and Gravitational Anomalies crush and twist their bodies into gore. Obviously if Scar could survive the force of a ton twisting, crushing, and/or pulling him, he can survive superhuman strength. And by word of god, he is superhuman himself, as he was able to survive EXTREME bursts of energy in the form of emissions, Psi Bolts that killed Ghost and countless other STALKER's, a trip mine at point blank and probably a lot of ruptures here and there. The PKM at the start of Cordon also signifies how fast the fucker can be, especially since I went there with a fully modded CS-1 that lasted me the entire game. A normal man cannot run past a PKM weighed down with 60kg of equipment on.

Minsc is not very smart, and thus could be fooled by Scar. Boo is also just a small stat boost, and if Scar was to hit him with a well placed shot to the brain, heart, veins, artery or spine, Minsc is properly kicked out.

Should Scar obtain allies, it is quite possible that he could team up with a joint team from every faction, even the Bandits.


-The Freedomer's would send a sniper to his cause, or Kostyan with his squad.
-The Dutyer's would sent a Exoskeleton with a PKM. Should mods be available, and if Cardan existed, he could RUN while holding a whopping 100kg.
-The Bandit's and Renegades would send a guy with an AS VAL.
-Loners would send an expert with a VSS.
-CS would send a soldiers with NATO Equipment.
-At the very least, Semyon Lambee would be the possible Military Ally, or one of Khaletsky's men after he cowed.
-And Hog or one of his men would be one of his Mercenary brother in arms.

[lemon10]

Well, if real world logic was allowed SOMEONE would man up and simply strike him in the head with a bullet, possibly tumbling and scrambling up the brain.

Look, I'm saying SCREW THEIR UNIVERSES MOSTLY and blending everything. Or arguing in the support of Scar.
Minsc is not very smart, and thus could be fooled by Scar. Boo is also just a small stat boost, and if Scar was to hit him with a well placed shot to the brain, heart, veins, artery or spine, Minsc is properly kicked out.

His armor would protect him from any shot aimed anywhere but his head. And sure he isn't very smart, but he is smart enough to do what he needs to do in combat (mainly run at the enemy and curbstomp them), especially since they both see each other at the start of this fight. Only a headshot would have any chance of doing any real amount of damage, and all minsc would have to do to avoid that would be to hold a sheild infront of his head or turn invisible.

And by word of god, he is superhuman himself, as he was able to survive EXTREME bursts of energy in the form of emissions, Psi Bolts that killed Ghost and countless other STALKER's, a trip mine at point blank and probably a lot of ruptures here and there. he PKM at the start of Cordon also signifies how fast the fucker can be, especially since I went there with a fully modded CS-1 that lasted me the entire game. A normal man cannot run past a PKM weighed down with 60kg of equipment on.
and
Should mods be available, and if Cardan existed, he could RUN while holding a whopping 100kg.

Minsc could survive ANY of those with minor injuries. Minsc has no problem running while carrying a (whooping) thousand pounds of equipment, so your points about running aren't really valid. Also, whats a PKM?

Should Scar obtain allies, it is quite possible that he could team up with a joint team from every faction, even the Bandits.

Meh, i suppose. Personally i think that the fight should just be called for minsc rather then bringing in allies (like you yourself said, allies are stupid), but i suspect the more men with guns wouldn't be that much more of a threat.

-The Bandit's and Renegades would send a guy with an AS VAL.
-Loners would send an expert with a VSS.
-CS would send a soldiers with NATO Equipment.
-At the very least, Semyon Lambee would be the possible Military Ally, or one of Khaletsky's men after he cowed.
-And Hog or one of his men would be one of his Mercenary brother in arms

Having never played the game and not wanting too look all these acronyms and people up on the internet, more info on them would be nessasary.

Although something that strikes me as really funny? Minsc would get annihilated in the Zone, simply on account of his int being something like 7, the first Controller to so much as glance in his direction would have an unstoppable berzerker zombie clad in magical armour wielding a legendary whirlwind of destruction weapon.

In the underdark, minsc died to mind flayers like 12 times for me. it was..... frustrating.

Easily countered with a sheild of harmony (which prevents all form of mind control), in addition to which by this point minsc's will saves are better then even a supergenius. ((And the mind flayers aren't that bad if you know how to counter them properly, the stuns and mind controls are annoying, but are fairly easy to counter, the mind flayers can be beaten by using skeleton summons as meat sheilds or using kiting archers)).


My main question here Phantom, (that i would like you to try to argue against), is what would scar do if minsc quaffed a potion of invisibility and then ran up to scar and started thwomping him in melee?

[Phantom]

See, I cannot fucking argue with Superman toned down.


I know fucking NOTHING about Minsc, and I pretty much hated Baldur's Gate while I loved other crap, even the Oubilette.

The VSS Vintorez is a subsonic Sniper Rifle which fires steel 9mm rounds, and the PAB-9 easily punctures the layers of kevlar which the Exoskeleton provides. Also note that the Controller screws up with actual, pure psionic strength, not fucking magic. Stat bonuses would have nothing against it. The AS VAL is a Russian Asssault Rifle designed like the VSS, except with the ability to fire full auto. Also has a quite larger magazine size. Also, Minsc can survive large bursts of energy which kills anyone out in the open, inside a tank, or in a helicopter. Problem with Minsc is he has fucking against reality strength, IRL he would be toned down to maybe that old guy that stayed ultra fit. I don't want to fucking argue against fantasy characters, I like closer to life grit.


King Harold versus Hadarada? Sign me up, I can argue for that.
Wolf pack versus Cougar? Sure.
Two bucks? Yep.
A fucking wizard versus a Ninja with shadow powers? No.

[iyaerP]

I am arguing D&D game mechanics, because as the thread owner stated:

The battlefield is a series of floating islands, about 40 feet in diameter, connected by bridges of various sizes.
The combatants start on separate islands.
Each obeys the mechanics of their own universe unless stated otherwise.

Begin debate!

Also, since when could any player in STALKER survive a gravi. Gravi is one of the insta-kill anomolies if you get pulled into it. Springboard, or whirligig, maybe. But nobody and nothing survives a gravi, so I have to disagree with your claim that scar can survive the crushing blows that Minsc could deliver.

On a realism level, I would actually put it about even. Nobody knows how effective +whatever D&D magic items would be in the real world or how well they would stand up to firearms, but even without them, minsc has plenty of access to invisibility rings, potions, or spells from allies, not to mention he can cast entagling roots as one of his cleric spells.

On a fun level? Merc was a 1 dimensional charachter with 0 development. Fun to play but boring. Minsc evolved over the course of the games and was HILARIOUS to play with.

I vote minsc.

[Phantom]

DOUBLE POST:


Scar is a superhuman touched by the Zone, able to survive large bursts of energy which literally evaporate clouds instantly, mutate people, rip out their mental abilities and burn out their nervous system. Also note, he has survived anything a normal human can't. Such as a fuel barrel exploding next to him, a hand grenade, probably a Gauss Rifle shot, and many other things. I say fuck you to Minsc because he is basically Fantasy Chuck Norris incarnate. Stupid, but supported. Scar is what you call a sensible combatant that is not decked out in fucking fantasy armor that is invincible to everything, any fucker who has that is invincible der. If I had it my way, I'd set them up in a countryside in France to allow Scar the ability to move around and not be bashed by a douchebag with the mental abilities of a 5 year old. Yes, Minsc has superhuman strength, but anyone that could take a bullet through the retina and into the brain without the very least of brain damage or a knockout is immediately crossed out as a fucking invulnerable douchebag. I would have chose Degtyarev or Strelok, or fucking a fantasy douchebag, or maybe even some person like Zulu, I would have never choose Minsc on account of the sheer stupidity of him.



I simply cannot argue in DnD terms. Look, here's how any fight against anyone from any universe with guns, even Starcraft.
Raynor versus Minsc:
Raynor is killed after Minsc survives Gauss shots.

Halo Elite versus Minsc:
Plasma Sword is useless, Plasma is useless.

Controller versus Minsc:
Uses crappy spell.

Crocodile versus Minsc:
The crocodile is stepped on.

Roland Deschain versus Minsc:
He'd shoot him in the head perfectly, but noooo hitpoints are in the way.

A sniper versus Minsc:
Hitpoints. Minsc would charge the moment he is hit.

Panzer versus Minsc:
No matter the model, it loses.

GDI Rifleman versus Minsc:
Dead. As he pulls the trigger.

NOD Chameleon versus Minsc:
Laser's deflect of armor.

GDI Titan versus Minsc:
150mm cannon shot is useless.

USS Missisipi versus Minsc:
Minsc boards and all crew is murdered.

Every STALKER in the Zone versus Minsc:
Dead.

US Army Versus Minsc:
Dead.

Cthulhu versus Minsc:
Only possible combatant.

Any real world army versus Minsc:
Dead.

OMON versus Minsc:
Guns really don't do anything.

Prinny versus Minsc:
Explodes.

Pseudogiant versus Minsc:
Ripped apart.

Blind Dog pack versus Minsc:
Ripped apart.

Chimera verus Minsc:
Swipes once and then the above.

Burer versus Minsc:
Burer holds up shield forever resulting in stale mate.

Bloodsucker versus Minsc:
Dead.

COG Gear versus Minsc:
Chainsaw ineffective.

Locust versus Minsc:
Hammerburst ineffective.

Kane versus Minsc:
All troops ineffective, Tanks ineffective.

Eliphas versus Minsc:
Armor punched through.

[iyaerP]

I must say phantom, you seem to be taking this far too personally.

For those who don't know Baldur's Gate or its items, I submit: http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/weapons/flails.html#flailofages+5
Site contains links to all possible other gear availible in game as well as walkthroughs etc.


Since you don't seem to know who Minsc is, allow us to put it into perspective for you, and perhaps you will realize why we think Minsc (and Boo) are as amazing as they are. The basic premise of the game is that you (the PC) are one of many children of Bhaal, the god of Murder. Minsc is an NPC that can join your party, and if the PC opts not to go for a melee oriented charachter, Minsc is far and away the best melee fighter in the game (until the expansion released saaverok, a game-breaker, but we will ignore that for the time being). Not only that, but he is genuinely original as well as being fairly funny, yet has a deep and somewhat grim charachterization that you can explore through all his side-quests, etc. etc. The major over-arching storyline of the games is that as a child of the (dead) god of murder, you or one of your siblings must eventually ascend to his deific throne. However, most of said children are powerhungry psychopaths imbued with nascant godhood and as such, are the kind of beings that can break entire armies. To cut a long story short, you as PC, and the rest of your party cut your way through ALL of them. The last one you face has 99% of your father's power while you have 1%, and you still emerge victorious.

And if you do this with Minsc in your party, he functions as main tank for most all of it. So when we tell you that Bullets don't matter so much to Minsc, it is not because we are being condescending to the game that you like of these two. It is because Minsc has withstood the blows of godlings, dragons, deamons and devils alike and is here to tell the tale in the same boastful and hilarious manner that made him a fan favorite.

When you compare that to Strelok, Scar, or any other STALKER, who, while muchly badass, face enemies who are human or near-human. Compared to the demons, dragons, giants and  do you begin to see why we favor Minsc?

Also, think about how easy it is to die in the STALKER games. Even in an exoskelli, a stray grenade can bring you down to almost nothing, or kill you outright if you are unlucky with the shrapnel trajectories.

also, I have to disagree with you on some of those:
Raynor versus Minsc:
Given the effectiveness of Gauss Rifles in Starcraft (infinitely better than they are in stalker), and how we have seen how crazy armoury-piercy they are, I gotta go with jimmy. And cuz you know, his power armour is about 100 generations better than an exoskeleton.

Halo Elite versus Minsc:
Plasma Sword cuts through armour. Flail of the ages crushes elite's skull. Draw.

Controller versus Minsc:
Minsc gets OWNED. see my comment in previous post about minsc vs mind flayers.

Crocodile versus Minsc:
The crocodile is curb stomped.

Roland Deschain versus Minsc:
The random people totally not related to this topic! Its like they don't even have any bearing on its outcome! MY GOD!

A sniper versus Minsc:
Minsc would charge the moment he is hit. if he can see the sniper and get to said sniper, yes.

Panzer versus Minsc:
tank>man

GDI Rifleman versus Minsc:
Dead. As he pulls the trigger. Yes. faceless mook vs epic hero tends to work out that way.

NOD Chameleon versus Minsc:
Laser's fry him even through his armour. Consevation of thermodynamics. Unless minsc has on the red dragon plate. Although I wonder. Does fire damage resistance count for lasers? hmmmm.

GDI Titan versus Minsc:
150mm cannon shot is 1-shot-kill.

USS Missisipi versus Minsc:
Minsc boards and all crew is murdered. You talking about the Battleship, the SSN, or the CGN? but yes in all cases. IF HE GETS ON BOARD. just bombard him from range.

Every STALKER in the Zone versus Minsc:
Depends. I can (and have) kill(ed) every STALKER in the zone in both Clear Sky and SoC. (As an aside, curse their stupid respawning. If I genocide a faction, they should take a hint and not respawn.) No reason to think that Minsc couldn't do it if he made good use of medkits and his magic items. Hell, since I am arguing that minsc as me (PC) could kill Scar as me (the PC), yes, I would agreee with this assessment.

US Army Versus Minsc:
Dead.

Cthulhu versus Minsc:
Oh my god. Its all stars!

Any real world army versus Minsc:
Dead. Indeed. I was saying that minsc would have a hard time against one elite soldier. He can't take an army. Noone can. Except maybe squirrel girl.

OMON versus Minsc:
Acronyms. Without explination. The sense. They make none.

Prinny versus Minsc:
Prinny is......?

Pseudogiant versus Minsc:
I give this to the psuedogiant if minsc is lower level than 12. Both are melee specialists afterall, and the psuedogiant IS pretty damn strong. Lvl 12 is about where minsc would have enough magic gear and weapon proficiency points to counteract this.

Blind Dog pack versus Minsc:
Ripped apart. Indeed. Blind dogs are a joke of a threat unless there is 20+ in STALKER. Now imagine putting a legendary swordmaster in that same situation with artifact weapon and magical armour.

Chimera verus Minsc:
Don't know what a chimera is.

Burer versus Minsc:
Again with the don't know what this thing is. So I will just say that I can't fairly judge on that basis.

Bloodsucker versus Minsc:
Dead. Well yes. you can kill a bloodsucker with a KA-BAR in the STALKER games.

COG Gear versus Minsc:
Chainsaw ineffective when compared with magical arms and armour. the orbital deathlaser would do the job nicely tho.

Locust versus Minsc:
I have no clue what locust are. Assuming they aren't the normal flying bug variety.

Kane versus Minsc:
Lasers FTW. Kane.

Eliphas versus Minsc:
Eliphas, easily. See my earlier rant about the forces of chaos when compared with Kane. Same applies here.


Since this is threatening to descend into a flame war, this shall be my last post till wehave new contestants.

[Ochita]

I think the +5 flail of ages is a bit much... Maybe the +4 one (no electric) or a +3 double handed sword. ..

[FuzzyZergling]

Well, this seems to be getting a bit heated.
Phantom, if you don't like the way I set up the fights, feel free to start your own thread, or stop looking at this one, or make a friendly (non-confrontational) suggestion. Really, you have a lot of options here.

Whan I say "the mechanics of their own universe", I don't mean that they are exactly the same as in the game. More that, for example, Minsc's magic helmet is actually a magic helmet, and that he does have strength greater that is possible for a normal human. It does not mean that he has actual hit points. (The mentioning of Vitality Gel in the Karkat fight was mostly for comedic/shoutout value.)
I think that iyaerP hit the nail on the head with this one, really.