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Author Topic: I think I am Ready to Try Again  (Read 1882 times)

Kalphoenix

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I think I am Ready to Try Again
« on: January 05, 2011, 09:39:55 pm »

I mostly just ready everyone's comments/questions and stories.  I think it's fun.

But I'm thinking of trying to "play" again and despite my long interest in the game, I've never really played past the 1st year on any fort.  I have not played since well before the last massive content update that included the "new" world layers and things like FBs, I figured I would let things like heat-exploding popcorn dwarves get smoothed out a bit before I tried anything in the newer versions.  I think it would be good for opposing my compulsiveness to return to experimenting with DF.

My preliminary questions are:

1.)  What version should I download (IE: Which one has the least crippling bugs for a perma-newb?).

2.)  I prefer to use a tileset rather than the lovely, yet complicated (for me) ASCI when possible.  I used to use Mayday, but I am not sure if there is a set of that compatible with any of the current builds.  However, this is not a must have by any means, it just takes away a level of complication for me.

3.)  Mayday (or something) had a front-end that allowed you to save launch configurations and look for certain features on embarking.  This was invaluable to me with my near-constant restarts.  Is there somewhere I can still get something like that for one of the more current versions?

4.)  Is the DF wiki still a pretty good resource for looking things up on a case-by-case basis?

I'm trying to figure out what exactly causes me to shy off from actual gameplay rather than just reading about it.  I love the detail of the game.  Thanks for any thoughts you can offer me.  I perhaps should just stick with one of the old builds, but I'm interested in a lot of the new "features" and look forward to "fun."
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rephikul

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2011, 10:46:04 pm »

1) .18

2) all major tilesets still work, including mayday

3) lauch configurations are always in the init. embark profile is also built in. You probably mean perfect world?

4) yes it's pretty good.
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Intensifying Mod v0.23 for 0.31.25. Paper tigers are white.
Prepacked Dwarf Fortress with Intensifying mod v.0.23, Phoebus graphics set, DFhack, Dwarf Therapist, Runesmith and a specialized custom worldgen param.

thunderbeard

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2011, 10:48:46 pm »

1.) i personally use 31.16 because there are many tools that aren't updated, like runesmith and DFHack. i've also heard it's more stable.

2.) i use Phoebus tileset, it's just a personal preference - all tilesets do is make it easier on the eyes

3.) 31.16 / .18 has embark profile saves and world generator saves ingame.

4.) the wiki is still the best place to answer alot of questions

glad you're giving it another go
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Eskielidder

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2011, 11:21:41 pm »

Check out the LazyNewbPack, which can be found at http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59026.0

It includes a couple of tilesets and some additional utilities as well.
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so now I'm in a terrifying desert
a nightwing killed 3 of my starting 7 but things are looking up now

Nameless Archon

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2011, 11:41:05 pm »

Check out the LazyNewbPack, which can be found at http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59026.0

It includes a couple of tilesets and some additional utilities as well.
I'll second this. It's easy to get started, even for non-technical users, and comes with the ability to patch the exotic animals and aquifers right out of the box. It also includes the three 'major' tilesets (Phoebus, Ironhand, Mayday), Dwarf Therapist... and if it's up to date, usually dfHack as well. It's a really neat package for new players to pick up and run.

Further, if you're stopping your forts within the first two years - why? Knowing more about what ends your desire to play a fort may help people make suggestions about how to change it.
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Kalphoenix

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2011, 12:57:35 am »

Check out the LazyNewbPack

That might just be for me.  I see a lot of tools in there I've never used, but they might help me get organized so I can feel comfortable playing longer.

Further, if you're stopping your forts within the first two years - why? Knowing more about what ends your desire to play a fort may help people make suggestions about how to change it.

I think some of why I stop is just the SHEER amount of organization.  I'm like "Oh boy, if I can't figure out what's going on now, what am I going to do later?"  The mods with LazyNewbie MIGHT help me with that?

Also, I tend to over think the entrance to my fortress.  I prefer to just have one opening wide enough for the trade-depot that I can think about defenses on later without having to worry about how to protect multiple openings (But I've only ever played long enough to get "attacked" by monkeys, lol).

There are some necessary "easy" basic things that are mostly necessary to a fort and give me trouble; I freeze up trying to figure them out.  These include (But are not limited to):  Wells/Cisterns (I don't understand how to utilize pressure plates and gates to keep a cistern full), Traps and safely irrigating farms.  So, I guess mechanisms?  I feel pretty embarrassed even admitting it, heh.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 01:27:31 am by Kalphoenix »
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Guedez

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2011, 01:59:15 am »

I think some of why I stop is just the SHEER amount of organization.  I'm like "Oh boy, if I can't figure out what's going on now, what am I going to do later?"  The mods with LazyNewbie MIGHT help me with that?

what i am doing as my current strategy is:

find a spot with flux, no aquifier, as many soil layers as possible, 100% flat(all zeros, yes that's possible to have with a river at the same time) and a river, if you can find all that and obsidian, please tell me the seed and the place.

then check if the cart is precisely on the middle of the map(yea it's not actualy needed) then do shift+diagonal direction 8 times and mark to channel, do it on the other 4 corners and then dig a big square over it all, don't channel the river yet make a bridge over it and wall the places you could not channel for now.

X = don't dig here
H = channel/dig
D = dig/dig, there are two to diferenciate and better understanding of what i want to represent(i hope)
B = bridge, i prefer retract as it will be a pit and i don't want then being tossed inside my fortress(if it toss then outside they might break if they are capable of, as the wall will appear on the side they are)
R = ramp, either upwards or backwards, it should take you to your storeroom, where the trade depot will be

XXXXXXXX top layer
XHHHHHHX
XHXXXXHX
XHXXXXHX
XHXXXXHX
XHHHHHHX
XXXXXXXX

now you are going to construct the place where everything will gather before passing right thru or entering your fort.
in each direction and diagonals build a tunnel to the center, something like this:

XXXXXXXXXXX top layer -3
XHHHHHHHHHX
XHHXXXXXHHX
XHXHXXXHXHX
XHXXHXHXXHX
XHHHHHHHHHX
XHXXHXHXXHX
XHXHXXXHXHX
XHHXXXXXHHX
XHHHHHHHHHX
XXXXXXXXXXX

on the center you do something like this:

HHXXXXXXXHH top layer -3 (zoomed in the center)
HDDDDDDDDDH
XDXXXXXXXDX
XDXDDDDDDDX
XDXDXXXXXDX
HDXDBBBRXDH
HDXDXXXXXDH
XDXDDDDDDDX
XDXXXXXXXDX
HDDDDDDDDDH
HHXXXXXXXHH

once everything is dug and you can defend yourself from gobbos(cage traps lol) you can open the big channeled square to the outside world by building(or digging) ramps, make all tunnels and ramps 3 blocks wide so that the caravans can enter your fort fron any directions.

Considerations:
Q: why let things enter from 8 directions instead of one?
A1: mob A wants to travel from SW to NE.
      "there is a unpassable square except by some undergound tunnels... hmmm, lemme A* here"
      "ok, the tunnels are faster, here i go! Omg wth is this cage? Noooo."
A2: "Dang, we gobbos can't fly, so we are going to wait in the only entrance to the fort for then to open!"
      A caravan from somewhere can come!
      Caravan get to the entrance
      Damn then! it's an ambush
      Everyone on caravan dies, and the game will consider that you stole then as far as i know, if there were more tunnels and the gobbos came from NE and the caravan came fron N they would take diferent tunnels, and depending on how close or far to the bridge the gobbos want to wait, they might never see each other.
A3: things need to get to the center and then converge in the bridge, so in the end they actualy only enter from one side where you put the lava.
A4: looks cool

Q: Why four layers of soil?
A: asthetics, you can dig one layer and then get rid of the random holes from murky pools and the river, then just put a floor and remove a floor and no more diferent collored water generating when rain floor, on the second(now first layer since you dug the first out) will grow tress, on the 3rd you can put a storehouse(i still need to confirm if this will stop the trees from growing on the second layer, if so you put things like farms above your storeroom, 4th layer is where everything will walk and get trapped and have fun
A2actualy: fast mining levels, using 4 peasants you can get then all to 20 in mining before finishing the project and no godamn "so many stones and nothing to do with those in early fortress", tough you realy get no stones untill you are certain that "it's here that i want to dig down now, you can rush the pit of lava and spikes to get some stones early, as it will almost always be straight below stone.
PS: Consider that if you breach the caverns you will start to see godamn mushrooms on your storeroom, so take note that they will not grow unless they have a whole soil layer below the soil layer they are growing(or they are on mud, no matter what's below the mud), or something like that.

Q: What about the river? why is it needed?
A: after you are relativaly safe(undead great eagles appart) you will start digging a underground(on the rock layers now) river, using the smooth stone+engrave fortifications you will make a "way out" for the water(on the boarder of the map, where you can't dig or build, happly you still can carve the fortifications), this way you can steal the river from the surface world! and still fish without ever going out, tough that's not a problem now(unless you have undead great eagles on your map), watch for crocodiles tough. also one of the only reliable water sources on savanas is a river, if you want elephants...



Also you can instead fill the big square hole you made(with lava!), put up some fortifications on the whole perimeter(on the inside) and a suspension bridge, then you get some stone blocks from the caravans and build a castle! (a hole on the gound to dig the stone would ruin the feudalism-like castle ambience!


hope it helps!
(btw i know this is a realy big post, but it' 5AM and im rly too tired to check for grammar errors or anything and maybe it got nothing to do with what you are asking but anyways... so sry for the bad english >D)
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Nameless Archon

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2011, 11:26:24 am »

That might just be for me.  I see a lot of tools in there I've never used, but they might help me get organized so I can feel comfortable playing longer.
Hmm... sounds like you're not going to find much love in DFHack. The therapist will help, as it's the best way to organize dwarf labors and see dwarf info 'at a glance', but the hack tools are mostly for working around various issues with the game or simplifying some tasks (like digging whole mineral veins). One or two are worth a note in this case:

dfreveal can be used to see the entire map you've embarked upon, if you like having a fort connected from top to bottom with a single staircase, for example. If you want 'the ideal siting' for your fortress within an embark, this might help. Just DON'T unpause it or hit a period (which advances the game one frame) while the map is revealed.

dfliquids can be used instead of a bucket brigade or pumps to put water where you want it. This makes farms totally simple, but assumes you don't have an issue with creating water "from thin air". I don't normally bother with this one.

dfvdig allows you to tag an entire vein (iron, coal, etc) for digging at one time. This is probably one of the least "cheaty" of the hacks, since you could duplicate this by selectively tagging the minerals one square a ta time as they were dug out, but it's very convenient to be able to tag it once and just sic your dwarves on it.

Quote
I think some of why I stop is just the SHEER amount of organization.  I'm like "Oh boy, if I can't figure out what's going on now, what am I going to do later?"  The mods with LazyNewbie MIGHT help me with that?
No, the only thing that helps with that is having a few forts starve, dehydrate, tantrum spiral, loyalty spiral, die to forgotten beasts, be slaughtered by ambushes, collapse during sieges, accidentally flood with water, flood with magma, flood with HFS, cave in and kill everyone, and so forth. While I don't buy that losing is fun 100%, trying to AVOID losing is fun, and there's plenty of that to be had in DF. After a few forts, the organization becomes very much second nature.

For your 'first trip out', go into it with the following mindset: This fortress is crap, and it will collapse, probably sooner than later, and that's OK. It will happen sooner or later, better to recognize that you're not an experienced fortress manager right out of the gate, and start the lengthy process of learning how to be one. Once you've had 10-12 forts, you'll have a much better feel for the things you don't currently understand, but there's really no way to put all those bits of info into your head other than 'the hard way'. Once you can reliably get up to 100+ dwarves and have forts that last more than a few years, it's easy to start finding ways to make the game harder.

Play a fort until it dies (or is clearly GOING to die) and then ask yourself: What happened? What went wrong? How can I prevent that next time?

Each fort will build on the experience you gain from previous forts. My first few 'forts' didn't really even make it a year before bad things started to happen. I'd play until I hit something I didn't understand (like farming to keep dwarves from starving), then go read the wiki and figure it out. Many times, I'd find that what I learned (from the wiki or experience or through testing) caused me to need to refine my design, so I'd start a new fort that took advantage of my new knowledge... (Sound familiar?) Every DF player goes through the early period of wrestling with the interface and complexity. If you don't like complexity, or you don't want to dedicate the time to learning the intricacies of the game, then it's probably just not for you.

(Please note: I don't want to discourage you, but this is a much more complex game than many others, and making mistakes can often cause harm to your work to date, so learning what the mistakes are and how things work is essential to avoiding those mistakes and keeping your forts on the rails! If you want a "perfect" fort, you can expect to have a lot of false starts. The typical goal isn't a 'perfect' fort, but a good one. I've never had a 'perfect' fort, but I've had some really solid ones.)

Quote
Also, I tend to over think the entrance to my fortress.  I prefer to just have one opening wide enough for the trade-depot that I can think about defenses on later without having to worry about how to protect multiple openings (But I've only ever played long enough to get "attacked" by monkeys, lol).
Monkeys are common attackers, but are easily thwarted. Chain a pair of dogs at the door, and the monkeys never get in, because they're scared of the dogs.

Quote
There are some necessary "easy" basic things that are mostly necessary to a fort and give me trouble; I freeze up trying to figure them out.
Paralysis by analysis. Quit thinking and "just do it". If you really want to keep one fort contiguously, then you should try save scumming. Just back up your saves, and then if you screw up, restore the backup save and keep playing. It's not a purist's solution, but if it helps you learn the game, who gives a flying fluffy wambler?

The easiest way to save scum is to simply turn on the automatic yearly/seasonal saves, so that if something goes wrong, you go back a season/year and have time to prepare for it.

Quote
Traps
For now, focus on cage traps and stonefall traps. They're simple (one cage + one mechanism or one stone + one mechanism) and a solid line of cage traps will hold against anything up to (and including) a siege. Later, you can move into complex mechanical traps that involve floods, cave-ins, or magma. At the beginning, focus on getting a perimeter and some cages built without your dwarves starving, dehyrdating or being killed by wildlife.

Quote
safely irrigating farms.
the safest farm irrigation is accomplished by breaching the side (not bottom, not top) of a muddy pool, and letting the water flow out over your future farmland. It's fast, effective, easy, and (unless you've done something strange) safe. It doesn't allow for covering as much farm land as some other methods, so I typically use an arrangement with a reservoir and baffle.

Quote
These include (But are not limited to):  Wells/Cisterns (I don't understand how to utilize pressure plates and gates to keep a cistern full)
I wouldn't use pressure plates for a basic well/cistern. You CAN, certainly, but I don't. I build a gravity fed reservoir and baffle system, or a pump with a reservoir and baffle:

Baffle, top view:
Code: [Select]
OOOOOO
...OOO
OOO...
OOOOOO

O = Walls (natural or not)
. = floor where water will flow.

Connect one end of the pipe to the reservoir/source and the other to the destination. A baffle will remove pressure from a gravity-fed source. The water will rise to the Z-level of the baffle, so build your well ABOVE (a Z-level above, not "north" on the same level) the channel where the water is, and build the baffle on the level where you want the water. It doesn't matter how far DOWN you go before you build the baffle, but make sure you position the well AFTER the baffle, and not before (or the well floods your fortress because you haven't removed the water pressure). Note that if you want water to exist on several levels (multiple wells, or to use for other purposes) you can simply use one main pipe and branch from it at each level, with a baffle for each level. Each baffle will kill its branch's water pressure at that level, allowing you to reach them from above (as with a well) safely. I often use this trick to have not only wells, but fishing areas where the reservoir water is covered by grates the fishermen can fish through.

Pumps are fairly starightforward. When powered (by dwarves or machines) they pick up water from a tile on one end (one Z-level below the pump) and spit it out on the other end (at the same Z-level as the pump). They are effectively archimedes screws. For now, ignore pump stacks and some of the other more complex pump operations (like water reactors). Concentrate on building a pump that can push water into an underground reservoir for storage. Be careful with pumps. They move a LOT of water VERY quickly, and flooding through over-supply is possible. Monitor pumps when they are active, if you're not 100% sure of how much water they'll move and to where. A pump consists of two tiles (dark and light) and is made from a block, a pipe and a corkscrew. The pump will always draw from the light end, and push out the dark end. The dark end acts as a wall to dwarves and water, the light end can be walked on, and is where a dwarf will stand when manually operating the pump.

If a pump tries to push water into a confined space with no exits (like a sealed reservoir) then the water is instead destroyed, but the pump will continue to operate normally.

Consult the wiki on pressure, flow and water, and read the article on pumps as well. Reread the articles until they start to make sense. Flooding a fort is lots of Fun, but you probably are trying to avoid that much Fun in an early fort. For your first pump, build a pump house like this one:

Code: [Select]
#%>#

# = floor grate
%> = Pump, pumping west to east
Then just wall in the pumps and grates to make a pump house. This will pump water from the grate on the left into the space ABOVE the grate on the right, where gravity will take over and move the water down into your pipe system.

Finally, there's floodgates and levers. Floodgates are the most intuitive way to control water flow. When you build them, they are in the down position, and can be raised to allow water to flow through. Levers require a mechanism to build. Build a floodgate, build a lever, and then add a "link lever to building" task to the lever that links it to the floodgate. Once linked, pulling the lever will raise the floodgate and allow water in. Pulling it again will close the floodgate. (Putting a floodgate in your pipe to allow you to cut off water flow is a good idea.)

My farms' irrigation hookups look something like this:
Code: [Select]
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
...FXFOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOO.........
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Where:
. is a floor tile
O is a wall tile
F is a fortification (like a wall that lets water through)
X is a floodgate.
Make sure to link the floodgate to a lever BEFORE walling it in with fortifications, or your floodgate can't be raised. Once I've irrigated the farms, I usually wall up the pipe and go on my merry way. (If later versions require re-irrigation, I can remove the wall and open the floodgate.)

If you'd like, I'll try to remember to upload my most recent good* fort, and its worldgen parameters to DFFD. I've been meaning to do it to show it to a friend, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Perhaps being able to fire up a fort "in progress" and tool around in it a bit will help ease some of your fears?
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GotIt_00

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 11:57:50 am »


Quote
safely irrigating farms.
the safest farm irrigation is accomplished by breaching the side (not bottom, not top) of a muddy pool, and letting the water flow out over your future farmland. It's fast, effective, easy, and (unless you've done something strange) safe. It doesn't allow for covering as much farm land as some other methods, so I typically use an arrangement with a reservoir and baffle.[/quote]

This is a really intricate system compared to my approach. I just dig a tunnel up to a brook or river, slap on a flood gate, and breach the wall to let in water. Once it looks like enough has made it onto the potential farm plots, I close the gate. To make wells, I dig a path for water and then channel a U-bend. This allows me to have irrigated fields and a water source pretty quickly.
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Cassicotca

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 02:46:38 pm »

I found that the easiest but not the safest way to make wells is to make them on top of caverns. Caverns usually have water and monsters cant get in except the occasional bat
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Nameless Archon

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 02:56:49 pm »

This is a really intricate system compared to my approach.
I think you mispronounced 'dwarfy', but I'll let it go.

Quote
I just dig a tunnel up to a brook or river, slap on a flood gate, and breach the wall to let in water. Once it looks like enough has made it onto the potential farm plots, I close the gate.
Aside from the fortifications and baffle, this is precisely my design for a gravity-fed source. The baffle adds zero construction time (same number of tiles to dig) and prevents water entering through that source from rising above the z-level of the baffle, in case of accident or negligence. For the first filling, if it's a large area, I use a pump, as the water flow is greater, but it's hardly required for most farms, which will be far smaller than mine.

Secondly, how do you intend to keep building destroyers off your floodgate? My 'really intricate' design does that with fortifications. Even if a building destroyer gets into the water source, it can't get into the fortress - there's no path from source to well/fishing/reactors for it to follow, because it can't get through the fortification/floodgate area.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 03:00:07 pm by Nameless Archon »
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fatherjimbo

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 08:00:44 pm »

If you'd like, I'll try to remember to upload my most recent good* fort, and its worldgen parameters to DFFD. I've been meaning to do it to show it to a friend, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Perhaps being able to fire up a fort "in progress" and tool around in it a bit will help ease some of your fears?

I, for one, would like to see a real-life (dwarf-life?) representation of your design. I have a tough time reading your representation with o's etc.
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Kalphoenix

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 08:26:00 pm »

Paralysis by analysis.

The STORY of my life.  I'm not sure if Dwarf Fortress is an acceptable form of therapy, but hey, can't hurt.
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Kalphoenix

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 09:24:42 pm »

Alrighty, my first genning of a world since the "new" release produces Issunthur, The Everlasting Universes.  I like the name.  A quick survey of legends reveals a colorful history, including a wide smattering of fell beasties, including MANY pages of exotic Forgotten Beasts, and a type of one-eyed, grey-skinned, curly-tailed humanoid menace known as a horror of twilight.  One of the more interesting cases of transformation was an elven weaver queen named Amala Ashdrinks, one of the first elves, who took to her new form with vigor and may still plague modern-day civilization.  Also interesting (disgusting) is a still-living female vomit demon named Mothi Crumblesteal the Strange Dungeon who looks like a giant gaunt kangaroo made of vomit twisted into humanoid form who apparently has webs the world should beware of.  She confronted and struck down only one being, a Goblin, joined his civilization and became a law-giver.  That is totally weird (and part of what I love about the game).  There was at least one instance that I read of a lemur devil successfully impersonating a human deity until she was eaten by a dragon twenty years later (I assume being eaten would lead your followers to question your divinity).  I was enchanted by the story of "Junker," one of the first kobolds.  She decided to become a thief and was highly successful, stealing right up until she died of old age.

I save a backup of the world before I proceed any further.

Opening the embark screen reveals something interesting.  Whereas I am used to seeing around four dwarven Civs, I see eight.  I have currently selected "The Gear of Whips."

In the case that I proceed far enough to warrant taking screen-shots and posting them for help and comments, what is the preferred method of screen-capture (printscreen?) and uploading?
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GotIt_00

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Re: I think I am Ready to Try Again
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 09:42:15 pm »

This is a really intricate system compared to my approach.
I think you mispronounced 'dwarfy', but I'll let it go.

Dwarfy was the word I was looking for!

Quote
Secondly, how do you intend to keep building destroyers off your floodgate? My 'really intricate' design does that with fortifications. Even if a building destroyer gets into the water source, it can't get into the fortress - there's no path from source to well/fishing/reactors for it to follow, because it can't get through the fortification/floodgate area.

This is an excellent question. I haven't had this problem yet, and am obviously under prepared. My I need a more intric--I mean dwarfy design (:
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