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[darkrider2]

I read the first post by retro, and the rest was TL;DR.

And I have to agree. Although I do like the silliness that goes on, the super-memes are almost scary regarding the speed that they spread throughout the GD forum.

Its just I'd like to see more original content coming out of the lower forums.

[Urist is dead tome]

I also support separation of serious and silly discussions.

We just need a political sounding name. Like the black shirts but no so evil.(This is not written for the intention of a response. I don't want a derail.)

[penguinofhonor]

The problem with these threads that are problematic is that the attitudes within them spill out into other threads if left unchecked. Just look at the Various Nonsense "rebellion" a while back. For anyone who's newer than that (most of you, probably) people were told to keep the nonsense in the right forum and they did for a while, but then thought it'd be funny to spread out into the other forums.

A lot of similar attitudes seem to be cropping up here, and back then the only solution that actually stopped the crap from happening was to kill it at the source. Hence the Various Nonsense forum was closed and split (and it even kept starting problems afterwards, leading to its deletion).

Basically, we can't let people goof off in just a couple threads. Because, no matter what guidelines are set, they'll end up doing it in more and more threads eventually. This forum has proved that in the past.

edit: aqizzar, you and I are on the exact same page

[GlyphGryph]

I wouldn't mind the equivalent to XKCDs "SERIOUS BUSINESS" as a sub-board with a more strict structure and guidelines. But it would still be important to occasionally step in for things getting out of line here, though, if things get out of hand (and I don't really think they have). I think the old forums being named "Various Nonsense" was not a helpful thing on that front.

But if I've gotten anything from Retro and those generally taking his side, its this:
Be the change you want to see, guys. If you want more serious threads and a more serious forum, the easiest way to do it is to post more serious threads and reply to other serious threads in a serious way!

Perhaps as sort of a user level hack, we could sort of agree as a group to keep any and all silliness out of threads with a [SERIOUS] tag attached or something? If it became a regular thing, I could see it working (though it would might be resisted or ignored at first)

[LordNagash]

The problem with these threads that are problematic is that the attitudes within them spill out into other threads if left unchecked. Just look at the Various Nonsense "rebellion" a while back. For anyone who's newer than that (most of you, probably) people were told to keep the nonsense in the right forum and they did for a while, but then thought it'd be funny to spread out into the other forums.

A lot of similar attitudes seem to be cropping up here, and back then the only solution that actually stopped the crap from happening was to kill it at the source. Hence the Various Nonsense forum was closed and split (and it even kept starting problems afterwards, leading to its deletion).

Basically, we can't let people goof off in just a couple threads. Because, no matter what guidelines are set, they'll end up doing it in more and more threads eventually. This forum has proved that in the past.

edit: aqizzar, you and I are on the exact same page

And this is exactly why I'm saying what I am. If you set aside a place for behaviour you wouldn't allow anywhere else, you're just encouraging that behaviour, which is only going to make it worse.

Really most of the advice Retro and I, and people who agree with us, is just trying to head off another Various Nonsense style death-spiral.

[Retro]

Fell a bit behind in this thread, but regarding the "if a thread is too silly for you, don't go in it and stay in the more serious topics" point: I don't see a problem with people being silly in relation to the topic, or with mild tangential spin-offs. But in threads that were not created to be silly, if I want to have a constructive conversation but am drowned out by what someone accurately called 'the evening circle jerk' a while ago, ie. people posting nonsense for the sake of joining in on other people posting nonsense. I'm okay with silly threads. But I want them to stay out of the discussions I like having / dropping in on. Ignoring a thread about something you're not interested is easy. Having to scroll past useless pages in a thread you are interested is arguably just as easy, but you should not have to.

I don't feel that a separate board is necessary either, nor would it really be a solution in anything more than theory.

And yes, to echo Sowelu, please don't point fingers.

[G-Flex]

And this is exactly why I'm saying what I am. If you set aside a place for behaviour you wouldn't allow anywhere else, you're just encouraging that behaviour, which is only going to make it worse.

Really most of the advice Retro and I, and people who agree with us, is just trying to head off another Various Nonsense style death-spiral.

This is why I think Toady relies way too much on reporting. One section/thread on the forums can cause problems even if nobody reports it, because the kind of people who would report that stuff wouldn't go to that section/thread. This is problematic if those sections/threads cause issues for other sections/threads. If you have some awful crackhouse in the middle of the city, and some gang in there spills over into the neighborhoods and causes problems for people, the police would hopefully trace the problem back to the crackhouse, not say "Well, we haven't gotten any calls about the crackhouse itself, so we're going to assume everything's all right there".

Basically, the big picture needs to be considered, not just isolated reports and that sort of thing. This isn't even considering the fact that people alienated from the forums in general from its attitude, atmosphere, or any other reason won't be using the report button at all; they just won't show up. Reporting is a limited tool; it's only a reactive measure that is only even taken when the right people are in the right place at the right time.

[Leafsnail]

This is why I think Toady relies way too much on reporting. One section/thread on the forums can cause problems even if nobody reports it, because the kind of people who would report that stuff wouldn't go to that section/thread. This is problematic if those sections/threads cause issues for other sections/threads. If you have some awful crackhouse in the middle of the city, and some gang in there spills over into the neighborhoods and causes problems for people, the police would hopefully trace the problem back to the crackhouse, not say "Well, we haven't gotten any calls about the crackhouse itself, so we're going to assume everything's all right there". Basically, the big picture needs to be considered, not just isolated reports and that sort of thing.

Even if I accept this rather nasty line of reasoning, how would moderators help this?

They still wouldn't be looking at those threads.  Or, if they are the kindof person that does look at those threads, if they weren't reporting it, they won't be moderating either.

[G-Flex]

The reasoning isn't nasty, just the analogy, which I admit is rather crazy in terms of degree (I'm not actually trying to compare people's threads to a crack house, of all things) but not in terms of the reasoning involved. Place A can cause problems for Place B even if the people in Place B never go to Place A, leading to Place A causing a problem even though nobody complains about it directly. Is that better?

Moderators could help by paying  more attention to the forums as a whole and which users/groups of users are doing what. Yes, a moderator/administrator would be looking at those threads, because it's their job to figure out what problems are and how to effectively solve them.

[Leafsnail]

I don't get how a thread can do that (except maybe in the case of the VN moving fortress thread).  Unless you're just trying to annoy some users you don't like into leaving by deleting their threads.

And if someone wanted to moderate, they could go to those threads and report things WITHOUT being a moderator.  Heck, if you want to be a mod, you could go do it now.

Again, as far as I can tell, the only difference if you were a mod is that you'd be able to circumvent Toady One's judgement.

[G-Flex]

I don't get how a thread can do that (except maybe in the case of the VN moving fortress thread).  Unless you're just trying to annoy some users you don't like into leaving by deleting their threads.

And if someone wanted to moderate, they could go to those threads and report things WITHOUT being a moderator.  Heck, if you want to be a mod, you could go do it now.

Something doesn't even have to be reportable in order to cause problems for other parts of the forums, and I've explained why threads/subforums can affect others: They attract certain people and engender certain types of atmosphere, behavior, discussion, and so forth. Also, as has been stated by others, making a specific place to act a certain way does not mean that nobody will act that way elsewhere: Standards of behavior and ways of thinking spill over between sections quite easily, as they do anywhere.

[darkrider2]

Honestly I'd love to have some extra mods around as long as they were respectable individuals.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

I don't get how a thread can do that (except maybe in the case of the VN moving fortress thread).  Unless you're just trying to annoy some users you don't like into leaving by deleting their threads.

And if someone wanted to moderate, they could go to those threads and report things WITHOUT being a moderator.  Heck, if you want to be a mod, you could go do it now.

Something doesn't even have to be reportable in order to cause problems for other parts of the forums, and I've explained why threads/subforums can affect others: They attract certain people and engender certain types of atmosphere, behavior, discussion, and so forth.

No one but you agrees with this. You want mods to go around hunting down "them troublemakers and their sneaky threads that aren't actually enough to report or against the rules, cause them's troublemakers like them crackheads and other minoritahs." You also have done nothing but just state that you feel that way over and over again when asked to actually provide evidence or a coherent argument as to why people should believe this.

[iceball3]

snip

No one but you agrees with this. You want mods to go around hunting down "them troublemakers and their sneaky threads that aren't actually enough to report or against the rules, cause them's troublemakers like them crackheads and other minoritahs." You also have done nothing but just state that you feel that way over and over again when asked to actually provide evidence or a coherent argument as to why people should believe this.

I agree with that. Sometimes a silly but warranted post can set a whole group of people off.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

You really mangled those quotes.

Now, to get this straight, you want mods to go around magically divining which otherwise innocuous and completely permitted posts they should fall upon with righteous fury because "them's stirrin up trouble all sneakylike"?