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[Megaman]

IRC's are much different than forums, you don't have time to write long posts over several days, just a few minutes and the discussion is over.

[Urist is dead tome]

Toady seems very depressed. It's probably 'cause he never uses exclamation points.

But anyway I think that Toady should think more about Retro's idea. It had some legs to stand on.

[Retro]

We [the channel] accept whoever feels like dropping in, but our tolerance for, and I'll have to apologize for my aggressive wording here but it's really the best way to phrase it, stupid bullshit is very low. We also have a set of guidelines and standards that we hold every user to and op moderation is actively performed when things are out of line - and it's worth mentioning that we're much better at self-moderation, as well. And in a transient form of communication, where conversations ebb and flow a lot more than lasting forum topics, the issue of being off-topic is pretty much non-existent.

The vast majority of the forumites don't seem to care about checking out IRC at all, largely because they use Steam to chat or just aren't interested in an IRC channel at all. Whereas from the other side of things, most of the channel (at least, all the regulars) have experienced the forums and really think it's worth keeping away from.

And yes, as per your one drop-in to the channel, we are negative about stuff. We are also positive about stuff. We are also apathetic about stuff, and a variety of other "things you felt _____ about today" emotions too. People are like that. Again, it's a transient form of communication. If us talking about how we don't like things we don't like and why bothered you that much, it's probably not for you anyways.

e- gramma yo

[Urist is dead tome]

OK you got me interested. What is this IRC?

[Chaoswizkid]

Maybe it might be better to lock this anyway. A fresh start to talk about the alienation of forum-groups, and now the IRCers, seems like a good idea. If one isn't made by tomorrow, or if discussion here is stagnant, I'll probably make one.

[Vector]

Maybe it might be better to lock this anyway. A fresh start to talk about the alienation of forum-groups, and now the IRCers, seems like a good idea. If one isn't made by tomorrow, or if discussion here is stagnant, I'll probably make one.

Or we could not add to the stealthily increasing thread-glut, and just talk about it here.

[Zangi]

I can safely say that no, the IRC crowd has every intention of staying as far away from the forums as possible. Yes, it's another DF-based mini-community (although the regulars really don't talk about DF at all), but it is the official one linked to on the main site and the wiki, and as Nagash pointed out, when one official mini-community wants to get as far away from the other as possible, it's pretty indicative that there's an issue. I think there's only like three regulars, including myself, who actually bother with the forums save from when some incredibly stupid/ridiculous/otherwise outrageous post is brought to our attention. Still, it's understandable that they want to see the forums seriously improved nonetheless. Nobody likes to watch something stagnate when it can easily be improved. From an outside perspective, I don't think anyone on IRC thinks the forums are 'fine the way they are' or in some cases even salvageable before Toady has to cut off a subforum to get people to smarten up, and pretty much everyone agreed that better structure and moderation would be a huge improvement.

Yea...  Catering to people who have no intent of joining this community... Cause they say this forum is a hell hole and because they think its the right thing to do...
Got it.

[Captain Mayday]

Many of us were more active in the forums in times past. We didn't stop being active because we only felt like being on IRC from now on.

[Chaoswizkid]

Maybe it might be better to lock this anyway. A fresh start to talk about the alienation of forum-groups, and now the IRCers, seems like a good idea. If one isn't made by tomorrow, or if discussion here is stagnant, I'll probably make one.

Or we could not add to the stealthily increasing thread-glut, and just talk about it here.

Which was my original intention.

I'd really like to hear some more discussion on just what is causing the alienation and possible ways to amend it. We're supposed to be a solid community, and in many ways we are, but to hear that there are groups that feel this way is unsettling for me. I know discussion on it happened before, but I feel like it wasn't focused enough to be on-topic enough for what's been established as the new on-topic (as in, moderation was included).

What is the problem that everyone has currently with the forums that makes them feel alienated, and are there any foreseeable ways to deal with it (other than moderation)?

[Rose]

OK you got me interested. What is this IRC?

IRC cannot be explained. it can only be experienced.

easiest way to get there:

1: http://www.newnet.net/newnewnet/jirc/chatme.html

2: type "/nick [insert name here]" and press enter

3: type "/join #bay12games" and press enter.

[LordNagash]

Many of us were more active in the forums in times past. We didn't stop being active because we only felt like being on IRC from now on.

Exactly. I used to post on the forums a lot, but now I just can't be bothered to wade through the bullshit. It's not that we 'have no intention of joining the community.'

[Zangi]

Many of us were more active in the forums in times past. We didn't stop being active because we only felt like being on IRC from now on.

Exactly. I used to post on the forums a lot, but now I just can't be bothered to wade through the bullshit. It's not that we 'have no intention of joining the community.'

Correction: Rejoining the community here.


@Chaoswizkid

As an example of this sort of thing, I'll use the #bay12games IRC channel. I've never seen an IRC channel so detached from a forum it should be related to in terms of regular member overlap, and the reason that I've frequently heard is that a lot of people think the bay12 forums are really awful. Reasons i've heard are that they are full of especially awful memes, a lot of really creepy attitudes towards Toady (bordering on stalking/worship occasionally) and that DF fans can be really rabid in their defense against any sort of attack (real or imaginary) against the game or its creator. I'm talking about the forums as a whole here, too. Not just the Finally... section. And I really don't think this is a good thing for the community in the long run. On a personal level I've stopped reading the dwarf mode forums because I got sick of reading 'magma solves everything', 'lol kill all the elves because they are hippies' and 'CARP LOL' in basically every thread, no matter what the original post was, and I'm not even new. If I was I imagine it would be even more off putting.

[Chaoswizkid]

@Chaoswizkid

As an example of this sort of thing, I'll use the #bay12games IRC channel. I've never seen an IRC channel so detached from a forum it should be related to in terms of regular member overlap, and the reason that I've frequently heard is that a lot of people think the bay12 forums are really awful. Reasons i've heard are that they are full of especially awful memes, a lot of really creepy attitudes towards Toady (bordering on stalking/worship occasionally) and that DF fans can be really rabid in their defense against any sort of attack (real or imaginary) against the game or its creator. I'm talking about the forums as a whole here, too. Not just the Finally... section. And I really don't think this is a good thing for the community in the long run. On a personal level I've stopped reading the dwarf mode forums because I got sick of reading 'magma solves everything', 'lol kill all the elves because they are hippies' and 'CARP LOL' in basically every thread, no matter what the original post was, and I'm not even new. If I was I imagine it would be even more off putting.

I'm not sure if that's in the right context. It sounds like LordNagash was talking about people not already a part of the community, past or present.
The reasons expressed, though, all seem very... insubstantial?
Awful memes aren't terribly common. Sure, there's the 'kill it with magma' and 'kittens are food' in the main DF forums, and the few memes that spawn and go viral in the Finally... forums. Then again, that's all that I've seen, but his reasoning sounds like it'd be someone's personal observation anyway.
Creepy attitudes towards Toady, rabid DF fans...
Are these really reasons to just not visit the community at all? Are they even reasons to segregate oneself from the community either?
Maybe as a combination with many other small things, but I don't think that these are the real underlying culprits. I could certainly find myself being wrong, though.

[Nivim]

 By gods we needed a thread like this! All those people who felt the strains of a growing forum needed some place to talk it out!  *Goes back and finishes reading.* This thread is certainly very warm, but it hasn't caught fire yet, which is, as usual, commendable.

Are you implying we make Kurtulmak some sort of Legacy moderator, passed down through the generations whenever he is needed to clean up the forums?

  I think this is a hilarious enough idea that it bears repeating. Where there would be one day of the year where Kurtulmak the Kobold God reigns supreme upon the forums; his power challenged only by the strongest of posters, who would unite to make him feel put upon and go back to sleep. =]

It's actually pretty well-established and well-known that the search feature here is a joke.  It works very sporadically, and sometimes gives different results to different people.  It's broken, hard.

Not at all, it's perfectly consistent in how it organizes information; you're just not keeping track of everything it does. For instance, if you typed something into the search function and pressed enter while on the same page as this post, the search would only bring up results from in this thread. Likewise, if you clicked on "General Discussion" from this page and repeated the process, the search would only bring up results from in the General Discussion subforum. If you wish to search the entire forum, you need to either go to main forum page to enter your search, or click on the magnifying glass beside the search box, and enter your search on that page.

There seems to be a sentiment that we are deleting more categories of posts lately.  I'm not sure if that's the case, because the ones we remember getting rid of (discussing it amongst ourselves just now) were pretty atrocious/trolls/spam/etc., but we'll try to be mindful of this since it has come up a few times in the thread.

Yeah, it's an idea produced from this corrupted feeling, one that's been building up because of people joining the forums from more varied sources and more varied reasons. It's not really something that can be ~fixed with any discernable action, so people look to other kinds of problems, in the hopes they will find one that can be cleanly fixed to make the feeling go away.


 On the discussion of the last two posts, it makes sense that some people would be put off by the mindlessness of people being One True Fans, but it seems odd they would have all concentrated in the IRC channel... Since I don't go to the channel to know for sure, I'm going to assume this is a byproduction of LordNagash being on fire so often.

[LordNagash]

On the discussion of the last two posts, it makes sense that some people would be put off by the mindlessness of people being One True Fans, but it seems odd they would have all concentrated in the IRC channel... Since I don't go to the channel to know for sure, I'm going to assume this is a byproduction of LordNagash being on fire so often.

Oh, not claiming they're all there by any means. Just that they are /there/, and most likely in other places as well.

Also, I am constantly on fire.