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[The Merchant Of Menace]

Having lurked on this forum since pre-VN deletion, I can say this forum is the only interesting thing on the internet, and I've been to plenty of places to know that it doesnt get any better, and could infact be quite alot worse like some have said.

Still coming here every day is the highlight of my afternoon, but people who think there is no problem with how we act here are very poorly informed, and make me never want to read post ever again.

Yes there are people who foolishly derail other peoples threads, weither they mean to or not, with one word replies or massive quote pyramids or infuriatingly big images with little or no context or jokes about a thread title that made somebody think about something crude, but without moderation or even other people telling them that they dont want them to do that, its as bad as asking someone to do it.

I'd have to say that before toady even hears about anyone thinking he need more moderators we all need to learn proper forum edicate and treat forum spammer and problem makers like a gunman, and less like rapist (because the majority of rape victims never report it, but your damn sure to report a guy who just shot you) and although you might not think it is that kind of thinking is wrong.

Although additional moderation wouldnt hurt.

+loves Rosalynne

... That's a pretty damn good analogy.

[LordNagash]

The faux cuteness thing annoys me as much as anyone, but I don't see why it should lead to banning.

I'm not trying to encourage banning in any way. I'm actually posting this in the hopes that there will be less bans handed out. I'm not looking for hardass drill sergeants to whip everyone's asses into line. I want moderators so there will actually be someone the community can go to if they have a problem, and not just to tell them who to ban.
...
Top of the first post. Plus both Tarn brothers have gotten a lot more aggressive in their moderation lately, likely due to their frustration, as I also talked about.

More restrictive, aggressive moderation only leads to worse behavior among forum users. It leads to a higher user turnover, alienation of most levelheaded users, and a general lack of existing standards to learn from and adhere to, just as much as a complete lack of moderation does. See: almost every other forum ever. Adding third party moderators just creates factionalism and abuse. See: almost every other forum ever.

Yes, people who make spam and get in fights need to be whacked with a mute to straighten them out, and some threads are blatant trolls and should be locked. But saying "no silliness ever because serious business!" is even sillier than a thread about goddamn cartoon ponies.

Well sure, if you hyperbole it up to 'nobody can ever have fun EVER' it sounds like a pretty bad deal, but nobody is asking for that. What I'm talking about is a firm middle ground, somewhere between what we have now and what you're talking about here.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Well sure, if you hyperbole it up to 'nobody can ever have fun EVER' it sounds like a pretty bad deal, but nobody is asking for that. What I'm talking about is a firm middle ground, somewhere between what we have now and what you're talking about here.

I didn't say "no fun," I said "no silliness," referring specifically to the random, pointless stuff you're complaining is shitting the place up so much that you have no recourse but to sit and complain about it.

[Sowelu]

I guess one of my main concerns is that I see two different groups of perceived "problem" users; the "silly" kind and the "malicious" kind.  And it always seems like the silly ones get all the attention.  Maybe it's because the malicious ones get smacked down pretty fast?  They always get right back up, though.  In any case we don't get flamewars about them.  (It was a big problem in the atheism thread, for example, even though it did eventually get shut down.)

Since the silly users get all the attention, I'm worried that more aggressive moderation will shut them down, while leaving the malicious users standing.  And then the forum character goes waaaaay in the wrong direction.

[RedKing]

The problem with mods (and I say this as both a former forum mod and IRC mod) is that you then require a set-in-stone code of conduct to back your actions, else you will invariably be accused of favoritism and bias. What may seem like harmless silliness to me may be an offensive waste of time and resources to someone else. And what may seem like an exercise of free speech to someone else may just come off as being a total asshat to me.

This leads to the mods devloping "tribes" of supporters, and just kind of factionalizes the whole community. And gods help you when you have two mods who strongly disagree over whether something is an infraction.


Personally, I like the "Hand of God" moderation B12 enjoys. But others are correct when they say that Tarn should be able to focus more on coding than on playing a wrathful Jehovah. I don't see a good solution, short of some folks growing slightly thicker skins and others being slightly less 4chan like.

[LordNagash]

I guess one of my main concerns is that I see two different groups of perceived "problem" users; the "silly" kind and the "malicious" kind.  And it always seems like the silly ones get all the attention.  Maybe it's because the malicious ones get smacked down pretty fast?  They always get right back up, though.  In any case we don't get flamewars about them.  (It was a big problem in the atheism thread, for example, even though it did eventually get shut down.)

Since the silly users get all the attention, I'm worried that more aggressive moderation will shut them down, while leaving the malicious users standing.  And then the forum character goes waaaaay in the wrong direction.

The decisions could be appealed though, and Toady and ThreeToe would be the final oversight. Not to mention that problem moderators can always be replaced. At the very least I think it's worth a trial run.

Anyway, I have to go to bed. Hopefully this thread has sparked some more discussion when I come back.

[lordnincompoop]

The problem with mods (and I say this as both a former forum mod and IRC mod) is that you then require a set-in-stone code of conduct to back your actions, else you will invariably be accused of favoritism and bias. What may seem like harmless silliness to me may be an offensive waste of time and resources to someone else. And what may seem like an exercise of free speech to someone else may just come off as being a total asshat to me.

This leads to the mods devloping "tribes" of supporters, and just kind of factionalizes the whole community. And gods help you when you have two mods who strongly disagree over whether something is an infraction.


Personally, I like the "Hand of God" moderation B12 enjoys. But others are correct when they say that Tarn should be able to focus more on coding than on playing a wrathful Jehovah. I don't see a good solution, short of some folks growing slightly thicker skins and others being slightly less 4chan like.

Then he should make a code, so that none of this happens.

This can happen, but the chances of it are significantly decreased with good mods and a good code.

We certainly can't just stand around and let this happen to us.

[Phmcw]

Anyway, annoying a thread because its content is silly is all kind of silly.
it's general discussion, and until word of god say otherwise, a silly discussion is still acceptable. Yes, I'm reffering to the pony thread, which made me laugh.

What is condemnable is blank post, derail and troll post.
Giant image, spam (already covered by the rules btw) and generally silly post in an otherwise serious thread fall under the first category.
Derail and troll are dealt with pretty quickly, and I'm quite certain that a simple reminder in the rules would do the tricks.
All you have to do is to point flagrant blank post/thread to their maker, and report if it get nasty.

[Sowelu]

A lot of this stuff could be addressed with one good sticky with a few good paragraphs.  (One of them could even just say "This is not 4chan.")

Restraint is one of the watchwords here, and a lot of us actually do pretty well at it.  I don't see hardly any image macros, which is...shocking, actually.  And I keep wanting to post them myself, but since this isn't the place, and nobody else does, I don't.  All in all, it keeps the place classier, so, yeah.

But yes.  A good sticky instead of a random paragraph in a thread every once in a while where people might not even see it.  Especially when that random paragraph comes along with deleting the offending posts, so nobody even knows what went wrong.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

This can happen, but the chances of it are significantly decreased with good mods and a good code.

Even if he looked (something which I understand he's pretty against in the first place, hence the "not already having third party moderators" thing), he wouldn't find anyone able to moderate neutrally, and such a code of behavior is impossible to write to an acceptable standard.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

To be perfectly honest, this is still the best forum I visit, which is impressive, seeing as it's also one of the largest ones I regularly visit. Speaking of large forums I used to regularly visit, there was Facepunch, which was pretty much a byword for draconian moderation and generally poor behavior - which is why I eventually gave up and left.

[lordnincompoop]

This can happen, but the chances of it are significantly decreased with good mods and a good code.

Even if he looked (something which I understand he's pretty against in the first place, hence the "not already having third party moderators" thing), he wouldn't find anyone able to moderate neutrally, and such a code of behavior is impossible to write to an acceptable standard.

There are plenty that can do that, and it's not like they're permanent. If a mod causes problems, he can simply replace him/her.

There is no such thing as a universally acceptable code, but it's certainly possible to try. That's all we can ever do. We can strive to be good, and we should do so instead of opting for nothing. There's quite a few examples of good codes out there.

[Sowelu]

There are plenty that can do that, and it's not like they're permanent. If a mod causes problems, he can simply replace him/her.

Oh dear god politics and drama.  This is why having third-party mods is such a bad idea.  "We can replace the mods" does not mean "it will not cause enormous drama and wreck the board in the process".  All the better if we can avoid it ever happening.

[Phmcw]

Regarding third party moderator, the original thread poster is already supposed to keep it's thread tidy, and is (from my understanding) entitled to point out behaviors that are against the rules.

[Heron TSG]

Having moderated a (much smaller) forum before, I can tell you that if we had citizen moderators, the rules would have to be extremely well set. People get mad when they feel they've been kicked out for no reason. Occasionally mad enough to come back under various IPs and troll everyone they see. Not only that, you can't have rules like 'no swearing'; rather you have to make it clear that major offenses (posting porn pictures, spamming, etc) are what gets you banned. Mutes and such would likely be the highest level of punishment a moderator other than Toady/ThreeToe should be able to give.