I’ve been wanting to make this post for a long time, but haven’t had the opportunity. In light of Toady’s comments earlier this morning, now seems the most appropriate time.
This is becoming a problem for me. Giant images and one-word posts have a way of irritating a large segment of the people here and are on the road to the total degeneracy that lead to the creation of the different boards in the first place. If something made you happy/sad today, you should talk about that. I've said this before, in these threads, and if you guys continue to ignore my attempts to keep this place in some kind of working order, I'm going to have to shut them down.
I would like to draw attention to the phrases ‘This is becoming a problem for me’ and ‘if you guys continue to ignore my attempts to keep this place in some kind of working order.’ While I have only been down in the lower forums since May-ish, I’ve noticed a number of problems which I find as being more than a bit atypical for a large forum to have. Moreover, when anyone attempts to call attention to these problems they are ignored either passively or actively, with such problems not being properly addressed at all. The keen observer will have noticed that in the last little while there have been less warnings and mutings in favour of straight bans, and much more sudden thread deletions over lockings or ‘get your act together’ posts. Both this trend and Toady’s above quote indicate a growing frustration with the lower forums’ behaviour that parallel that of myself and others.
These are the problems I’ve identified:
The forums are too large for two people to moderate alone.While they were already a little big for two people before DF v0.31, since April the forums have ballooned. The management has remained the same number. Even if the Adams brothers were actively following along with various threads, they would still be missing a substantial amount of what was going on. As such, they act passively, checking up on posts and threads that have been reported alone. A number of moderators (at the least, even just one) in charge of the lower forums, comprised of people who already read the lower forums, would be able to really keep an eye on things proactively rather than reactively.
The ‘report’ button cannot be the only tool a moderator uses.The report button is supposed to be used to notify a moderator when a person is posting something inappropriate, or harassing you or someone else, or generally out of line. However on these forums there is no active moderation, with attention only being brought to a thread via the report button. This means that if people are derailing a thread, or posting nonsense, or responding with only images, or threads don’t have a point, you either have to use the Somebody Is Way Out Of Line button or just accept it silently. The report button also has the feeling of a Snitch Button – if you use it you may feel like you’re just silently calling people out. This as well discourages people from using it. I’ve seen forumites, even active long-timers, say they don’t bother with the button at all. It is simply not something that people want to use – and at the same time is the only venue they
can use.
At the same time, and especially recently, a post being reported seems to result in threads getting deleted when a simple lock or a few deleted posts would suffice, or the poster getting banned without regard to the context of the report. It appears to me that Toady and Threetoe are now so frustrated with the lower forums’ behaviour that they simply wish to deal with things as quickly as possible, which results in anything getting reported and thus brought to their attention receiving the highest level of punishment.
The forums are not capable of adequately moderating themselves. I’ve heard the explanation ‘Well, when we get out of line, we can keep each other in check’ a few times now, and I don’t believe it. On a small scale, yes, this is possible. On a large scale it is not. I’ll take the Happy/Sad threads as examples again, since they’re the threads most indicative of the behaviour of the rest of the forums.
If you recall the uproar a month or two ago over the sudden breakout of terms like “mew,” “auuuuu,” and the excessive use of tildes, you may remember that after it was brought to the thread’s attention by Toady that it was annoying a lot of people and getting out of line, the offenders responded that they were incredibly surprised and had no idea anyone was put off. At the same time, a
lot of people came out and said that actually, yeah, they found it very irritating. So why didn’t anyone say anything about it?
Well, a few people (inc. myself) did. And were completely ignored. I didn’t want to PM anyone because that would be confrontational, nor did such a thing qualify as report-worthy. So it went on for a while (and hell, there’s still a ridiculous “Auu~!” that I find grating in the thread title) until somebody finally did use the report button.
This is just one example, but it does illustrate the point I’m making, which is that if your attempts to ‘self-moderate’ are ignored, there is no other avenue to take than to use the report button, which has the problems listed above.
No guidelines / weak ruleset.My critique of this is not of rules like “don’t pick fights,” “don’t spam,” and “don’t link inappropriate material.” It is that there is not really any sort of behavioural code listed. Is it okay to post nothing but a single image in a post? Well, if it doesn’t count as ‘disruptive.’ Is it fine to fill pages of a thread with all caps random nonsense? Sure, if it isn’t ‘intentionally garbled.’ Guidelines would actually tell people how they should behave, and what’s acceptable, etcetera.
There is also no process of appeals for bans, mutings, whatever. You could send a PM (if you’re not banned), but the odds of getting a response are very slim, especially with consideration to the fact that Toady gets enough PMs about DF already. So if you feel that you have been muted or banned unfairly, what can you do? Well… nothing. At all. Hypothetically you could send Toady an email, but getting a response to this is unlikely as well. To use another example: Dasleah was banned a month or two ago, which himself, myself, and others found unfair. Dasleah emailed Toady about it. As of a week ago, he’d still gotten nothing back, and it’s unlikely he will. Regardless of whether you think that his ban was fair or unfair, there remains no way to appeal the moderators’ judgement.
As an example of a better system, here’s a link to the ruleset the Gamespy forums use (
http://forums.gamespy.com/UserPages/Terms.aspx ). That page lists what content and actions are explicitly not permitted, what a user can do in the forums, guidelines on how to behave, how moderators operate, and what to do about bans. Our forum guidelines (
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=38442.0 ) only have the list of explicit actions.
A lack of transparency.This is just a short point, but I’d really like some sort of stickied thread where Toady explains who has been banned/muted, or what’s been deleted. Threads have been disappearing all over lately, and only sometimes is there a post explaining why someone has been banned. It’d be nice to know when it happens.
So what are you getting at?Here’s my proposed solution:
First, get a few moderators. The upper forums are a different matter, but the lower forums really need a few – I’d say three would be a good number, for balance. It takes the weight of Toady and Threetoe’s back, allows for problems and disagreements be proactively fixed before they devolve into unsalvageable derails, and lets the community contact mods without having to use the dreaded Button Which Should Not Be Named. I would suggest three forumites who have been with the forums long enough to know the zeitgeist of the community and are known themselves, and who are also helpful, active, and responsible enough to be unbiased.
Secondly, an expanded ruleset would address the problems of no behavioural guidelines and no process of appeals. That alone would be a huge improvement.
Follow-up:I of course do not mean to insist that the problems I myself have noticed are all exactly the issue or are necessarily even problems alone. It’s just one perspective. But I don’t feel I’m alone in not enjoying the direction the forums are taking. I’d like to see what the rest of you think, whether you agree or not, and where the differences in opinion stem. At the very least I’d like something to actually come of this, so I will likely be self-reporting this post in a day or so just to get Toady’s attention once some good discussion has gotten going to see what he thinks. I really would like something to actually change as a result of this. I don’t think that the forums can continue to ‘work’ without some sort of change being made, and now seems as good a time as any.
I’d also like to clarify that I don’t have any issue with Toady and Threetoe themselves. I think they’re doing as good a job as they can on their own, and I understand and sympathize with their growing irritation. Nevertheless, I don’t believe that the current moderation process is enough for the forums.
As a final note, all opinions are of course welcome, but
please don’t simply reply with “If you don’t like it, then leave.” It is the least helpful and least useful thing that can be said. Ignoring a problem fixes nothing.
e- quick grammar fix. my -> may.
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Topic: Regarding the state of the forums. (Read 35267 times)