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[Cheese]

No more Forum Games & Roleplaying. I went over this, but the short of it is: It isn't necessary, there are other and more sufficient places for it, and it attracts a crowd rather distinct from the purpose of the board. Nobody should expect bay12games to allow that stuff here, as it wouldn't even be strange of Toady to disallow it, statistically speaking.

I post both in and outside of that bored, and I'm pretty sure RtDs are popular with some regulars of the forum. I don't want to have to get acquainted with a whole new community just to play some daft little forum game I enjoy playing with people I know more.

[G-Flex]

No more Forum Games & Roleplaying. I went over this, but the short of it is: It isn't necessary, there are other and more sufficient places for it, and it attracts a crowd rather distinct from the purpose of the board. Nobody should expect bay12games to allow that stuff here, as it wouldn't even be strange of Toady to disallow it, statistically speaking.

I post both in and outside of that bored, and I'm pretty sure RtDs are popular with some regulars of the forum. I don't want to have to get acquainted with a whole new community just to play some daft little forum game I enjoy playing with people I know more.

I understand that it's convenient, but a single forum doesn't need to have every single thing that members of that forum might want to do together, and the fact remains that the purpose of that board is completely at odds with the purpose of the rest of the forum. It's inharmonious and, in my opinion (which might be a little jaded or wrong), this causes problems.

Let's at least not get out of our way to denounce board we don't even goes in.

Do you expect me to complain about the things that I like, or to frequent boards that I dislike? Obviously, if I have enough of a problem with a place (legitimately or not), I'm not going to go there. That doesn't make my points any more or less valid.

Now, for calling the "wrong crowd"... it's just weird. What do you mean?

I gave a pretty thorough explanation. It engenders an atmosphere and attracts a usergroup distinct/inharmonious with the rest of the forums. It provides a "draw" to the forums that is completely distinct from and unrelated to the intended one (Bay 12 Games and its games). In other words, its purpose is distinct from and potentially at odds with that of the forum itself, particularly if it starts to form its own forum subculture on its own merits.

[Cheese]

Why not have it? It doesn't actually effect any other boards.

[RedKing]

@ Foot- I use the report button when I see something that bothers me myself, but if the problem you're having is small, reporting it seems like an overblown reaction. The fact that forumites have stated at various occasions they aren't comfortable with reporting people even when justified emphasizes my point.

Yes, I understand that you and others feel that way about the report button, but you are wrong.  Like Toady has said a billion times, it's good to report even small or potential problems.  Do you understand that your attitude is making it harder for the Adamses to moderate the forums?

Sorry, but I just can't agree with this. Flooding their inbox with complaints every time somebody posts something that is not 100% germane to the topic, or is just a quick in-joke? We've been talking about the need to find a better system so that Tarn can spend more time coding and less time moderating. This suggestion seems to be the opposite of that.

[Footkerchief]

Why not have it? It doesn't actually effect any other boards.

Because the people attracted by that culture end up spamming the Happy/Sad threads, etc.

Sorry, but I just can't agree with this. Flooding their inbox with complaints every time somebody posts something that is not 100% germane to the topic, or is just a quick in-joke? We've been talking about the need to find a better system so that Tarn can spend more time coding and less time moderating. This suggestion seems to be the opposite of that.

Frivolous reports are bad, sure, but Toady has made it absolutely clear that posters should err on the side of reporting.  Please read these quotes if you haven't already:

Spoiler: long and already posted once (click to show/hide)

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=38415.msg645760#msg645760

We received quite a few moderator reports, but not nearly so many that we can't attend to them.  If people reported more often the things that they've been put off by, this might no longer be true, but we won't know until that happens.  I encourage more moderator reports, to the extent that there are legitimate reasons to make them in the first place.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54186.msg1192672#msg1192672

Please report problems to the moderators instead of calling people idiots and arguing for pages and then reporting them.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=30910.msg433915#msg433915

Be polite when you reply or click report to moderator if you don't feel you can do that and I'll handle it.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27009.0

If you find a post that violates one of these guidelines, please report it with the "report to moderator" button located to the lower right of the post.  It's one of the only ways we can enforce the guidelines and keep the forum healthy, safe and enjoyable.  If you don't report the post, chances are we won't notice it.

Again, if there's actually a problem, don't just call each other assholes and stuff.  Report it with the moderator button.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34047.msg527026#msg527026

Please try not to moderate the boards yourselves.  If you think there is a spambot or something, just let me know in a moderator report.

If you have a problem with somebody's post, click the "Report to moderator" text below the message in question and let me know what's up.

[...] if you've got a problem, report it with the moderator button.

[...] if you have a problem with a post that's flaming/spamming a thread, click the report button instead of firing at people.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=53243.msg1143269#msg1143269

Please treat people with respect here even if you don't think they deserve it.  If you can't do that, and you think there's a problem, just report the post and leave it alone.  When threads get out of control, it takes longer to handle them.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34112.msg513750#msg513750

Although, if you do find yourself getting tired and even just a little frustrated, please report instead of replying, and I'll take care of it, hopefully without causing a problem (not saying a problem was caused here).

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=35546.msg682119#msg682119

If there's an issue with somebody, report it and then ignore future posts from that person.

Things like this tend to spiral into degeneracy once they've descended into personal attacks, almost without exception, so I lock them, especially when the fight is all people are talking about, or when the OP is involved.  It's better to report things early so they don't reach that point, rather than letting it fester.

It's not like we just drop in and take the reporter's side.

[RedKing]

Now, for calling the "wrong crowd"... it's just weird. What do you mean?

I gave a pretty thorough explanation. It engenders an atmosphere and attracts a usergroup distinct/inharmonious with the rest of the forums. It provides a "draw" to the forums that is completely distinct from and unrelated to the intended one (Bay 12 Games and its games). In other words, its purpose is distinct from and potentially at odds with that of the forum itself, particularly if it starts to form its own forum subculture on its own merits.

Yeah, we lower the property values, raise the crime rate, and paint our houses weird colors. Now this is all starting to make sense. You want the forum equivalent of an HOA.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

No more Forum Games & Roleplaying. I went over this, but the short of it is: It isn't necessary, there are other and more sufficient places for it, and it attracts a crowd rather distinct from the purpose of the board. Nobody should expect bay12games to allow that stuff here, as it wouldn't even be strange of Toady to disallow it, statistically speaking.

I post both in and outside of that bored, and I'm pretty sure RtDs are popular with some regulars of the forum. I don't want to have to get acquainted with a whole new community just to play some daft little forum game I enjoy playing with people I know more.

I understand that it's convenient, but a single forum doesn't need to have every single thing that members of that forum might want to do together, and the fact remains that the purpose of that board is completely at odds with the purpose of the rest of the forum. It's inharmonious and, in my opinion (which might be a little jaded or wrong), this causes problems.

The purpose of the forum as a whole is to foster a community around DF. Part of that is having things that are *gasp* completely unrelated to it, as basic amenities. You compared it to a taco bell in a church, when it's really more like restrooms. Yeah, most people don't piss in a church, but do you really want them leaving to run to the nearest fast food place? Isn't the point to draw people in, and keep them? Why then would you want to encourage them to spend less time here?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I think you all are getting rather caught up in all of this. Toady made one post telling the Happy/Sad threads to abide by the "no spam" rule more, and eight pages of disscussion later we have an advocate for nuking Form Games & Roleplaying because "it attracts a crowd rather distinct from the purpose of the board". What is that even supposed to mean? By that logic, we would have to remove all of Finally....

I mean, seriously? I could get behind, say, single board moderators who have the power to lock threads and bring them to Toady's judgement (see: Jonathan S. Fox in Curses), but this is all getting a bit out of hand.

[Footkerchief]

Yeah, we lower the property values, raise the crime rate, and paint our houses weird colors. Now this is all starting to make sense. You want the forum equivalent of an HOA.

Isn't the point to draw people in, and keep them? Why then would you want to encourage them to spend less time here?

It's a question of which "people" you want.  Do you want to attract Youtube commentors?  Freepers?  /b/tards?

I guess you can call that elitist if you want, but it's reasonable to expect the Bay 12 Forums population to share an interest in Bay 12 Games.

[Zangi]

• No more Forum Games & Roleplaying. I went over this, but the short of it is: It isn't necessary, there are other and more sufficient places for it, and it attracts a crowd rather distinct from the purpose of the board. Nobody should expect bay12games to allow that stuff here, as it wouldn't even be strange of Toady to disallow it, statistically speaking.

1) Its pretty durned active.
2) So you want to remove it(and the whole lower section with it) because...
2a) It attracts unwanted people.
2b) It is not what this forum is about.
2c) People can't stand the idea that it exists on their B12 forum.


I like this place as it is.  It brings a lot of variety and I can dabble and post wherever I feel like at the time.  Plus, I like the people here well enough.  Even though I've never stepped foot in Forum Games & Roleplaying...

Don't break up the good thing we have down here bro.

[warhammer651]

Yeah, I really don't see how Form Games and Roleplaying is "at odds with the purpose of the forum".

Going by what I think your logic is, we'd also have to get rid of Other Games and Creative Projects as well.

A few more moderators I can support. Some modifications to the rules I can accept.

Closing down entire subforums that I enjoy and frequent? Not so much.

[G-Flex]

Why not have it? It doesn't actually effect any other boards.

That's an assumption I'm certainly not prepared to make. People (and the general demeanor surrounding them) certainly do spill over between boards, and people in Board A might still hang around largely because they're attracted to Board B.

Yeah, we lower the property values, raise the crime rate, and paint our houses weird colors. Now this is all starting to make sense. You want the forum equivalent of an HOA.

You're being a touch silly here, honestly. A public neighborhood is not equivalent to a webforum. I guess you could say I want the equivalent of an HOA, except in an apartment complex, where the rules are drawn up by the guy who owns the building.

You cannot simply take it for granted that you have a forum games section. A lot of forums don't, and there are a lot of potential sections that these forums don't/shouldn't have even if they would belong other places or aren't bad things in themselves (Erotic roleplay! Foot photos! A place to post your dad's beard online! Online dating!).

Someone compared RG&RP to restrooms in a building. This is what I'm talking about. A place to roleplay is not a basic amenity, period.

These forums don't have everything, shouldn't have everything, and as they are restricted as such by necessity, sometimes it makes sense to re-evaluate what does or doesn't belong.

I think you all are getting rather caught up in all of this. Toady made one post telling the Happy/Sad threads to abide by the "no spam" rule more, and eight pages of disscussion later we have an advocate for nuking Form Games & Roleplaying because "it attracts a crowd rather distinct from the purpose of the board". What is that even supposed to mean? By that logic, we would have to remove all of Finally....

I said a lot of things aside from that, and I've had those things to say for a long time. Toady's recent post has absolutely nothing to do with it. However, I feel it's been clear in general recently that Toady's been a little more frustrated with the forums, but I can't speak for him.

At any rate, I think I've explained what I mean often enough, and no, I don't think the same applies to the rest of "Finally...".



Honestly, a lot of people are making what amounts to the same arguments against me here, and I feel like at this point, I've responded to all of them sufficiently. This has nothing to do with me thinking that forum games are a bad thing, just that these forums don't, can't, and never did have everything that everyone might want, and that some re-evaluation is in order to discuss what should or shouldn't remain and how it would impact the forums/community. Maybe it shouldn't be closed, and maybe it should, but either way, it deserves consideration at this point.

Yeah, I really don't see how Form Games and Roleplaying is "at odds with the purpose of the forum".

Going by what I think your logic is, we'd also have to get rid of Other Games and Creative Projects as well.

I understand your point, but from my perspective, that would really only be a sufficient point if those other forums (Other Games, etc.) actually did engender their own cliquey subculture or attract members primarily by their own merit. I think Forum Games does this, and I don't think those other ones do. I think General Discussion does this as well, to some degree, but only because it lacks focus and direction.

[Mazonas]

I love the free, fun and casual nature of this forum.  When I specifically want to get into DF-related discussions, I go to the DF boards.  For a bit of fun, usually lurking, I go to the other boards.  The truth is, all forums have some silliness in them.  It does not go away - all you can do is contain it.  And right now the silliness here is pretty much contained - to posts in the sillier non-DF boards.  The number of forums I've been on where the most popular thread was a word association game that seemed to have been going on for years, and which consisted entirely of one-word posts, often with smileys and, when a word could be construed as rude, lots of giggling.  On an adult board.  For adults.  Better to have that in the one area that dispersed about the place, surely?  And better to leave it be than alienate and eventually lose the posters who enjoy the silly boards - they don't all just post silly stuff, and their more serious contributions elsewhere in the forums are surely still worth having.



As someone whose just witnessed a bit of mod bias fallout on another forum I use, I have to ask please, please do not restrict the fun, free and easy-going nature of this forum.  The problem with mods is that, even where the rules that posters must follow is clear, the manner in which mods deal with rule breaking can cause so many problems.

Case in point, the recent drama on this other forum I belong to.  A Pagan forum, and a discussion was being had in which we were asking questions of a forum member who had confessed to being "not racist but I dislike the look, smell, language, culture and food of entire-continental-group-X so I just avoid being around them".  Obviously a subject that is pretty much 100% going to cause tempers to flare at some point.  Things actually were fairly restrained at first.  The problem came when mods decided to delete posts by one poster who described the above attitude as being an example, dictionary definition, of bigotry, for "personal attack of another poster", then paraphrased the post to let everyone know why he acted... except that the mod's misquoted version actually made what was originally a fairly fair, understandable and reasoned response sound like childish whining.  The thread soon after collapsed into arguments with mods, disagreements, derails and calls of bias and unfairness.

Since then, about 1/4 of all the new threads have been discussions anf debates amongst posters who agree/disagree with the moderation, taking sides with the mod or against him, posts complaining that posts debating the moderation were deleted, threats of leaving and eventually polls for voting for new moderation standards.  It looks like it may end with the loss of the mod, and potentially two posters if not more.

No forum mod can totally avoid bias, and the drama it causes is so divisive.

I could understand the need for more severe moderation on a forum where actually offensive, attacking, hateful or ignorant posts are taking place, but it seems sad to bring in moderation to deal with people having a bit of silly fun.

[G-Flex]

If you think that the General Discussion forum exists for the purpose of "silly fun", then I believe you've made a point, albeit not the one you intended.

To an extent, I also get the point you are trying to make, but it's hardly even controversial now that very large segments of the DF community consider the forums (particularly certain parts) to be not even worth visiting. Casual, lax fun is one thing, but when it alienates people from a place they'd actually want to go to otherwise, especially when that place exists for the benefit of a given person or organization of which they are a fan, there's a problem.

[Cheese]

You guys seem to have the idea that the forum games and roleplaying forum is some internet-famous attraction. People won't come here for that bored. I didn't even notice it till maybe 4 months of membership.

On the idea of moderators: I'd personally find a dislike to it, but it could be quite good for the forums. My dislike would be because of various bad things that could happen that have previously been discussed and that the moderators would probably become sort of 'Forum Gods' and not like we love the Tarns for developing DF and being so awesome to the community since they'd be full-time members of the community aswell. I hate it when you get forums where the moderators word being law means that your opinion in a discussion is suddenly overruled by the moderator challenging it and everybody suddenly siding with them. That might not necessarily happen here since we all have a pretty high degree of intelligence.

@G-flex: You're being kind of silly. The people of Forum games are members of this community just as we are, they do not show any prejudice against players without 'merit'.