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[iceball3]

Spoiler: developing quote pyramid (click to show/hide)

You completely missed my point. Many of those aspects involve creature size in a way that you can't fudge. How much "damage" an attack does is based on how big of a cut it makes, or how deeply it penetrates, or how wide of a hole it makes, and that sort of thing. We are not living in an age of hit points anymore; how "damaged" a creature is consists of what injuries are sustained, and to what severity, and where. Let's say you have a vampire with sharp claws. He's human-sized, and his claws are about what you'd expect (think very sharp human fingernails). If you treat his size such that his claws penetrate as deep and wide as they could physically go, then damage isn't really going to be effected (except that maybe there is a more blunt force involved). If you treat his size such that damage is seriously affected, then you wind up with a human-shaped vampire whose fingernails can cut off someone's torso, or penetrate a foot deep, or other ridiculous things, since that is the sort of thing that determines damage. Having to figure out this kind of absurd behavior and correct for it using two different values for creature/bodypart size is, quite frankly, ridiculous, and the system is by no means equipped to handle it.

This is unrealistic by real world standards, yes, but there are strong precedents for it in fiction. Go out and rent pretty much any kung-fu movie or action based anime series and you'll see most of the characters doing stuff like this, usually without even having the benefit of being a vamipre like in your example. For a particularly graphic example of this, I recommend watching the final fight scene from the movie Kung-Fu Hustle, paying particular attention to the effects that the "Buddha's Palm" move/technique used at the end of the sequence (at time 6:29-7:29 and again at 7:50-7:56 in the youtube clip I've linked to here) causes.

Or that scene from Kung-Pow: Enter the Fist where the Chosen One punches a hole clean through that one guy's stomach.

Which makes absolutely no sense. An impact like that would more just send him flying across the room.

Not if he punched him fast enough...

You need a lot smaller contact area for that to work with your fists....
Even so, you'll still end up with a busted hand.

[Bohandas]

Spoiler: developing quote pyramid (click to show/hide)

You completely missed my point. Many of those aspects involve creature size in a way that you can't fudge. How much "damage" an attack does is based on how big of a cut it makes, or how deeply it penetrates, or how wide of a hole it makes, and that sort of thing. We are not living in an age of hit points anymore; how "damaged" a creature is consists of what injuries are sustained, and to what severity, and where. Let's say you have a vampire with sharp claws. He's human-sized, and his claws are about what you'd expect (think very sharp human fingernails). If you treat his size such that his claws penetrate as deep and wide as they could physically go, then damage isn't really going to be effected (except that maybe there is a more blunt force involved). If you treat his size such that damage is seriously affected, then you wind up with a human-shaped vampire whose fingernails can cut off someone's torso, or penetrate a foot deep, or other ridiculous things, since that is the sort of thing that determines damage. Having to figure out this kind of absurd behavior and correct for it using two different values for creature/bodypart size is, quite frankly, ridiculous, and the system is by no means equipped to handle it.

This is unrealistic by real world standards, yes, but there are strong precedents for it in fiction. Go out and rent pretty much any kung-fu movie or action based anime series and you'll see most of the characters doing stuff like this, usually without even having the benefit of being a vamipre like in your example. For a particularly graphic example of this, I recommend watching the final fight scene from the movie Kung-Fu Hustle, paying particular attention to the effects that the "Buddha's Palm" move/technique used at the end of the sequence (at time 6:29-7:29 and again at 7:50-7:56 in the youtube clip I've linked to here) causes.

Or that scene from Kung-Pow: Enter the Fist where the Chosen One punches a hole clean through that one guy's stomach.

Which makes absolutely no sense. An impact like that would more just send him flying across the room.

Not if he punched him hard enough...

Put enough force and speed behind that punch and it might even pull him closer

By the way, I am aware that no real-life human could punch fast enough and hard enough to create the effect that I imply in my previous post, (and especially not in the manner depicted in the movie); The narrator of the film even makes a comment to this effect...
Part my intended point is that that should not detract from the viability of the suggested tag in question, as the tag is meant to represent damaged caused by creatures who, like the Chosen One, are supernaturally strong.

...However, all of this is secondary to the the main point that I was trying to make with the Kung-Pow... example, which was to provide an established example in fiction of a scene where somebody fighting unarmed strikes a blow which creates a wound larger than the body part used to inflict it. He needn't have punched all the way through for my main point to have been made...

[G-Flex]

...However, all of this is secondary to the the main point that I was trying to make with the Kung-Pow... example, which was to provide an established example in fiction of a scene where somebody fighting unarmed strikes a blow which creates a wound larger than the body part used to inflict it. He needn't have punched all the way through for my main point to have been made...

That doesn't mean it makes sense in general for attacks to do that, even in an intentionally over-the-top fictional sense.

[Bohandas]

...which was to provide an established example in fiction of...

Which brings up another point. Dwarf Fortress is set in a fictional world largely populated by proposterous fantasy creatures^*. It Doesn't need to be totally realistic.


<sub>^*Despite the fact that the names of some of these creatures have, in modern times, been unfairly co-opted  to describe a number of extremely boring (and often largely unrelated) mundane real-world phenomena ie. Dragon, Hydra, Dwarf, Chimera^**, et cetera

^** ok, so maybe that last one wasn't completely boring</sub>

[Bohandas]

...However, all of this is secondary to the the main point that I was trying to make with the Kung-Pow... example, which was to provide an established example in fiction of a scene where somebody fighting unarmed strikes a blow which creates a wound larger than the body part used to inflict it. He needn't have punched all the way through for my main point to have been made...

That doesn't mean it makes sense in general for attacks to do that, even in an intentionally over-the-top fictional sense.

It is NOT being proposed "in general for attacks to do that", only attacks from creatures with the proposed [EFFECTIVE_SIZE:::] or [EFFECTIVE_SIZE_MOD:X] tokens. Theoretically those tokens could even be further limited to specific attacks from said creatures.

[G-Flex]

...However, all of this is secondary to the the main point that I was trying to make with the Kung-Pow... example, which was to provide an established example in fiction of a scene where somebody fighting unarmed strikes a blow which creates a wound larger than the body part used to inflict it. He needn't have punched all the way through for my main point to have been made...

That doesn't mean it makes sense in general for attacks to do that, even in an intentionally over-the-top fictional sense.

It is NOT being proposed "in general for attacks to do that", only attacks from creatures with the proposed [EFFECTIVE_SIZE:::] or [EFFECTIVE_SIZE_MOD:X] tokens. Theoretically those tokens could even be further limited to specific attacks from said creatures.

Ergh. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense for that tag to cause those effects in a general sense. First off, the example provided was one that was intentionally over-the-top and comedic, so not a very good example, and blunt force trauma causing a bigger hole than the object used to render it is only one specific example that happens to make more sense than others. For instance, it makes less sense for a bite wound to make a hole with eight times the diameter of the tooth, or for a super-powerful creature to sever somebody's arm with a blowgun dart.

Again, this sort of tag would, at best, lead to very bizarre results that you would not generally want from the system, and the behavior you do want (i.e. allowing creatures to be super-powerful for their size) is best achieved through other means since we already have an attribute system. I think I've already made my case for that.

[Bohandas]

Just had a brainwave...

Can we set [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:] above 100% ?

[Bohandas]

Also, I would like to be able to define attacks whose power is completely unrelated to the size and mass of the creature making the attack and the body part being used.

Back in 40d I had several custom creatures with telekinetic attacks but if I were to attempt to reproduce those creatures in the current version the power of those attacks would be directly related to the physical size of their brain.

[iceball3]

Also, I would like to be able to define attacks whose power is completely unrelated to the size and mass of the creature making the attack and the body part being used.

Back in 40d I had several custom creatures with telekinetic attacks but if I were to attempt to reproduce those creatures in the current version the power of those attacks would be directly related to the physical size of their brain.

Give them an unbelievably dense brain then. Won't have to worry about funky size things right?

[GreatWyrmGold]

How about instead an [EFFECTIVE_SIZE_MOD:X] where X is a ratio that would be multiplied against the creature's actual size to get their effective size in combat.  Would be much more extensible and usable for mods, rather than having to calculate what a creature that's 40% "bigger."

This makes more sense...or at least something like it.

Well, I supposed a multiplier would work... Wouldn't be as precise though.

Although it would allow for transformations IE human to vampire, without as much mucking about.

EDIT - It could also be used for strength boosting artifacts/magic weapons... A hammer of force with [EFFECTIVE_SIZE_MOD:20], now that'd be fun!

A.) Or you could have [WHATEVER_TAG:256] make it have a combat-effective 256% the size.
B.) Yeah, it would.
C.) FINALLY! A way for artifacts to be magic! Maybe.

[G-Flex]

Also, I would like to be able to define attacks whose power is completely unrelated to the size and mass of the creature making the attack and the body part being used.

Back in 40d I had several custom creatures with telekinetic attacks but if I were to attempt to reproduce those creatures in the current version the power of those attacks would be directly related to the physical size of their brain.

This is definitely a good idea, but the thing is that such attacks are effectively magical in nature, and the system isn't really intended to handle that yet. Granted, it hopefully should someday, but I wouldn't expect any placeholders in the mean time.

[Bohandas]

Just had a brainwave...

Can we set [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:] above 100% ?

I've since tested a custom creature with the related tag [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:] set above 100 and no errors were logged because of it.

[Evil One]

Just had a brainwave...

Can we set [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:] above 100% ?

I've since tested a custom creature with the related tag [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:] set above 100 and no errors were logged because of it.

But does it actually DO anything in combat?

@ G-Flex, with regards to the attribute system idea, there's still one problem... Conversions, Your idea would work if for example you just wanted to have a supernatural creature, but what if you wanted the supernatural creature to be part of a condition (So you could have Human, goblin, elf or Dwarf Vampires), the [EFFECTIVE_SIZE_MOD:] Token can handle it, but how could it be reliably done with attribute modifications?

Also how would such a modification affect the descriptors?, would you end up with every human, goblin, ETC vampire always being incredibly muscular?

[G-Flex]

but what if you wanted the supernatural creature to be part of a condition (So you could have Human, goblin, elf or Dwarf Vampires), the [EFFECTIVE_SIZE_MOD:] Token can handle it, but how could it be reliably done with attribute modifications?

How could it not? Just give syndromes tags that affect attributes. I mean, that's honestly not a far-fetched idea anyway; I can see even realistic syndromes affecting your physical and mental faculties, albeit mostly in a negative way, and doing it in a positive way is really no harder.

[Evil One]

but what if you wanted the supernatural creature to be part of a condition (So you could have Human, goblin, elf or Dwarf Vampires), the [EFFECTIVE_SIZE_MOD:] Token can handle it, but how could it be reliably done with attribute modifications?

How could it not? Just give syndromes tags that affect attributes. I mean, that's honestly not a far-fetched idea anyway; I can see even realistic syndromes affecting your physical and mental faculties, albeit mostly in a negative way, and doing it in a positive way is really no harder.

Still Toady would have to add in an appearance freeze (or make it so only the unmodified attributes are counted), otherwise you'd end up with Urist McSchwarzenegger Vampires.

Positive syndromes... Hmm, the image of a Dwarf torturing some idiotic noble with a torture implement made of a syndrome causing metal that prevents bleeding... The possibilities are endless.