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[salmonjockey]

I've been designing, programming and modding games on a hobby basis for over a decade. And I must say Dwarf Fortress is one of those groundbreaking games that makes me nod in agreement and say "Yep, this is the good stuff right here."

But, there are a million things I disagree with. No multiplayer, no scalable multi-core architecture, the user-interface, a lack of general playability. The list would be endless if I went into details, but can summarized by the simple fact that I would have entirely different plans if I were to make an awesome simulation game.

As it happens, I have been planning to make an awesome simulation game for years - since long before I even tried DF. I've spent a couple of years just working out a scalable architecture that can utilize any number of cores and/or machines for a strategy/simulation type game, figured out a lot of details regarding multiplayer and user interface, and I feel quite ready to get started properly.

I cannot imagine, however, that I am the only one. Surely, there are other people out there. It would be nice to get to know you! Who here has tried making a similar game? Who has been thinking about it, but never quite done anything? And perhaps most interestingly, what would be the most important things you would do differently, both in terms of architecture and game design?

Oh, and if I can make a request, I'd like this thread to be for programmers. There is already an entire sub-forum for anyone to talk about generic suggestions.

[Rose]

I've thought that, but I lack the experience, skill, and know-how, required to pull it off.

[Omegastick]

I've thought that, but I lack the experience, skill, and know-how, required to pull it off.

This.

Although, I'm not complaining about how Toady makes his games - after all, everybody is different.

[alfie275]

http://www.goblincamp.com/

[malimbar04]

I blame this on the RPG culture, where the worlds we can create are so amazing yet always lacking. What if we could automatically create them!? What if we could get cool things to happen? sweetness occurs.

As I learn how to program, I am SO going to start making a similar god-sim. Ideally I'd want it to be able to support better graphics, which would also allow variations in sizes of creatures and so forth. The graphics would probably be along the lines of the first final fantasies, since getting graphics that don't clash horribly would probably require a professional.

And so forth of course. The ideal version would require such computing power though that no one would be able to play it.

[AntiAntiMatter]

I've thought that, but I lack the experience, skill, and know-how, required to pull it off.

This.

This.

[Max White]

No. No programmer will ever be able to play DF without thinking about what the inner logic is. We are cursed to ponder the inner workings of an artifact made by a man far greater then most of us for the rest of our natural lives.

[salmonjockey]

No. No programmer will ever be able to play DF without thinking about what the inner logic is. We are cursed to ponder the inner workings of an artifact made by a man far greater then most of us for the rest of our natural lives.

I can't say I ever had that feeling. DF does make me think "wow, that is a really sensible way to handle X". But it never makes me think "I don't understand how it does X". Contrary to popular belief, DF isn't magical

I blame this on the RPG culture

What do you mean by RPG culture btw?

As I learn how to program, I am SO going to start making a similar god-sim. Ideally I'd want it to be able to support better graphics, which would also allow variations in sizes of creatures and so forth. The graphics would probably be along the lines of the first final fantasies, since getting graphics that don't clash horribly would probably require a professional.

And so forth of course. The ideal version would require such computing power though that no one would be able to play it.

I think you are spot on with graphics along the lines of the first final fantasies. Or to put it another way: Graphics that are highly "icon"-ish (to use a different word for low fidelity). Not only is it a lot easier for the programmer/artist than high definition 3d models; there is another great benefit as well: Players will be in "fill in the blanks"-mode rather than "noticing what's wrong "-mode. That is, the more realistic something looks, the more you notice what's wrong: if a high definition model attacks, it looks stupid if the sword doesn't properly connect with it's target. If the graphics is simple however, the player's imagination is more than happy to help.

As for whether the ideal world-sim would require more CPU power than we can handle, the keyword is distributed computing. It's difficult, yes, but it will let you run worlds that are, literally, 10, 100, 1.000, 10.000, 100.000, 100.000.000 times larger than you can ever do with single-core. I mean, even today, if you could combine 10 8-core machines - even assuming 50% efficiency loss - you can still run 40 times more stuff than a single core. And unlike single-core, this will follow moore's law, probably for quite some time even

[eerr]

I've been designing, programming and modding games on a hobby basis for over a decade. And I must say Dwarf Fortress is one of those groundbreaking games that makes me nod in agreement and say "Yep, this is the good stuff right here."

But, there are a million things I disagree with. No multiplayer, no scalable multi-core architecture, the user-interface, a lack of general playability. The list would be endless if I went into details, but can summarized by the simple fact that I would have entirely different plans if I were to make an awesome simulation game.

As it happens, I have been planning to make an awesome simulation game for years - since long before I even tried DF. I've spent a couple of years just working out a scalable architecture that can utilize any number of cores and/or machines for a strategy/simulation type game, figured out a lot of details regarding multiplayer and user interface, and I feel quite ready to get started properly.

I cannot imagine, however, that I am the only one. Surely, there are other people out there. It would be nice to get to know you! Who here has tried making a similar game? Who has been thinking about it, but never quite done anything? And perhaps most interestingly, what would be the most important things you would do differently, both in terms of architecture and game design?

Oh, and if I can make a request, I'd like this thread to be for programmers. There is already an entire sub-forum for anyone to talk about generic suggestions.

I can, the inside of dwarf fortress is probably a gigantic mess. Filled with a hundred thousand inconsequential things that I didn't even know (at the current time) were even tracked! Who could possibly allow such a large leak of things which don't matter in order to make an absolute simulation?

Toady1=whackjob.

[SolarShado]

The true curse of a programmer: every piece of software you come across, you always think "I could've done that better..."
(yes, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it's bound to happen to some of us sometimes)

[Raziel_Blaze]

If any one knows of a group that is attempting to pull this off, let me know. It is my dream to make an immersible fantasy simulation in 3D. Basically I would like to implement an Iris Zoom like engine to view your corner of the world as a table top piece that when you zoomed in to different areas you would see all types of procedural life forms thriving. A group of faeries far to your south trying to fend off a family of trolls, vampires creeping in the forest  at the edge of your town, different civilizations possibly building up slowly next to you, and of course with the minds that play games like this who knows what else. With multi-processor engines streaming in new areas, and SIMD ( or XNA math ), this CAN be pulled off in a very large scale with impressive 3d graphics. I know we can do it now if developers would look more into procedural content creation rather that the typical liner RPGs of late. I can see you choosing different races each with their own unique play style, humans building their vast farmlands and keeps, dwarfish empires carving their fortresses from a mountain side, orcs, goblins, and even our hated elven races building massive tree based civilizations, the list goes on. This is what I believe video games where supposed to evolve into.
Recent evolution of real time tessellation could not have come at a better time as we could render tens of thousands of elements using so little polygons unless we need to look at our minions up close as they crafted out their daily lives. This needs to be made.

[sockless]

The worst is when you make something yourself and you think "I could've done better", it's the worst with woodworking.

[GTM]

As more of an aspiring programmer than an accomplished one, I have a different perspective here.  Tarn has a weird combination of technical savvy + creativity + actually getting shit done that is rare, and that's why DF is what it is.  There are plenty of people who kick his ass on any one of those three criteria, but they don't have a community of rabid fans like this one.

I think in this thread you're going to get more technical savvy folks - the ones who can build an engine that is theoretically awesome with all the right architecture.  But their ideas may be unpopular, or they may lack the conviction to follow through with a big project.  I don't mean this as a commentary on people who have or will post in this thread since I don't know enough about who they are or what they've done, but consider this food for thought.

[Biag]

As more of an aspiring programmer than an accomplished one, I have a different perspective here.  Tarn has a weird combination of technical savvy + creativity + actually getting shit done that is rare, and that's why DF is what it is.  There are plenty of people who kick his ass on any one of those three criteria, but they don't have a community of rabid fans like this one.

I think in this thread you're going to get more technical savvy folks - the ones who can build an engine that is theoretically awesome with all the right architecture.  But their ideas may be unpopular, or they may lack the conviction to follow through with a big project.  I don't mean this as a commentary on people who have or will post in this thread since I don't know enough about who they are or what they've done, but consider this food for thought.

That's absolutely true. I think that last one is really the magic ingredient... it seems to be the weakness of most people, at least. Honestly, programming is not that hard; only every once in a while do you find a teeny bug that takes three hours to fix (looking at you, tile.has_agent!), and even then it's just a matter of looking everywhere for the mistake you made. You know, when the interpreter doesn't just point it out for you.

That said, there's a way to fix that actually-getting-shit-done problem. Bay12 7-Day Roguelike contest, anyone?

[Siquo]

I know how it feels. What DF inspired in me was: "So it is possible, and possible by One Man Only!".
So I got started. And I'm still nowhere. Almost done with the "reallyreally big dynamically generated and rendered 3D-world that allows for digging"-part, but I've been "almost done" with that for the last 5 months OTOH, I haven't worked on the same project and gotten so far ever before.

It'll be done in about 2030, I'll get back to you on this.