Unfortunately, I'm going to have to deal with Mindmaker probably believing NativeForeigner is more likely Town, despite NativeForeigner not really giving a crap Day 2 onward. Oh disappointing.
Thank you for belittling me, makes my work so much easier.
It's interesting, what you can pull of your ass, if faced with the dreadful perspective, of me not buying your theories.
More of that later on.
Oh, you mean when you said:
Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Or do you mean this:
All in all, the rivalry between webadict and Jim, get's less and less convincing as the game goes on. Just saying.
Because that's on the same level. You're assuming I'm scum and Native is town for no reason. So, don't dish out what you don't want served.
Reason #1 that NativeForeigner should be lynched:
... which just made me want to execute you more.
Because why? I'm trying to make sure that the Town wins. You're not giving me a fair set of standards, but you'll basically protect NativeForeigner for no reason. You aren't giving my arguments a fair preview.
If NativeForeigner were Town, he would KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THIS WOULD BE THE SCUMTEAM. IT WOULD BE THE ONLY OPTION! Unfortunately, he really can't give the necessary acting it takes to believe such a thing, as he really only has one goal in mind: Lynch the webadict!
Not only do we get the "possibility" line, which shows how certain he is that I'm scum (He knows Jim's scum), but he even has the guts to pull out a "randomly decided" nonsense. That's right: He's using the worst statistical evidence he can muster! Let's not forget the amount of logical reasoning he provides: It's random!
This is the most passive line I have ever seen, in the most crucial time when he should be trying to lynch the scum.
What acting? Do you believe you get bonus points for every time you claim being town?
Saying things like this is utterly pointless, given that everyone says the same.
I use that "neutral approach" myself and lynching anyone for this would be bloody stupid.
If this was more, than just a desperate attempt to save your skin, than I have to say you're not nearly as good as I thought you were.
Well, apart from me trying to make sure you lynch correctly, prove two players that are only attacking me as scum, prove I'm town, and not lose all at the same time, then yes, I'm trying to save my own skin. Wanna know why? Because the two remaining players are scum, and I know it. So, there are only two choices, one of which is now forced due to not switching a broken rule that didn't quite make sense to begin with.
various posts accusing NF of being jumpy
Most of them weren't even strong accusations, just things that struck him as odd, leading to inquiries of his.
Well you ever heard of the term "sportmanship", webadict?
A valid reason to object in my opinion.
Sportsmanship? That's a double-edged term right there. I could claim that the scum are bad sports for not wanting to change the rule. It is, however, a broken rule and needs changing. Plus, part of the rule change was to see the reaction from Jim and Native, which should show Jim as being scum.
The only real reason for me to object to something on principle would be an automatic win due to an abuse of the rules, which would be the exact opposite of what Jim Groovester proposed.
To both of you:
I'd be happy, if you didn't dodge my questions, by overshadowing them with your personal argument.
So even if the rules weren't changed and I'd execute NF, all of us would be available for kingship, right?
Because I'm going to execute NF, shouldn't he show up soon, defending himself against webadict and sharing his thoughts on Jim.
I'm not going to tolerate lurkers, no matter if this might make me lose. I'd still have the satisfaction of having figured out the scumteam.
Yes, everyone would be up for kingship, should Native be lynched.
The point is I only lynch on evidence and suspect on gut feeling. Suspecting someone means about at little as how you care to make yourself look Townie. But, that's obviously not even your plan. Wanna know how I know? You basically gave away you and NativeForeigner as being the scumteam, and it's INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS.
In fact, if you skip to the very last part of this dissection, I'll show you. Dear God, are you low. You're also an idiot.
I only make Walls of Text for people I believe are scum, because they're the ones with evidence against them. Just because I feel like you're scum, does not: 1) make that person scum, or 2) means there's sufficient evidence to lynch them. Zrk2 was scummy, and he was validly justified. Day 1, I wasn't convinced enough about any of Jokerman, Dariush, or Pandarsenic to lynch. That's why I was sitting there looking at the names. They were scummy, but not nearly enough to constitute a lynch.
This sounds like a lot of bullshit to justify scummy play on your part. Probably because it is.
There isn't really any discrepancy between evidence and suspicions, because the former leads naturally into the latter. If you can't point to any particular post or string of posts where you can say, "I suspect this person for these reasons," then you're just doling out token suspicions for their own sake and justifying it by calling it a gut feeling.
Hell, you can just say "I suspect this person for these reasons, but I do not suspect them all that strongly for it." See? That was easy. You did absolutely none of that.
Alright, monkey. "I previously suspected the prior because they weren't participating and I felt like they could participate more."
Participation, mostly. Explanations. People trying to play. And then slight intuition.
Dance, puppet, dance! Repeat attack, repeat attack!
More whining about Dariush.
Okay, I get it, you don't like that I indicated I was planning on lynching Dariush on Monday days in advance and that I did exactly that.
And apparently you have a problem with the reasons I lynched Dariush on. Oh, wait, no you don't, you only have a problem with the number of reasons that I lynched Dariush on.
I don't know. You've got a pretty weird definition of scumhunting, where you don't have to have any reasons to suspect somebody, but to lynch them you need an exhaustive list. What a confusing inconsistency. It's almost like it's personally customized to fit you and whatever crap you try and pull in a game.
I would normally expect that you need good reasons to both suspect people and lynch them, and that the number of reasons shouldn't matter, only whether the reasons are actually any good.
You had terrible reasons for Dariush and expected people to use your four hours to say something about it. You said that four hours were enough. That's when you declared you would lynch. You said you would probably lynch on Monday, but you definitively declared it on Monday. And gave four hours. During a non-busy time frame. Why don't I make beeping noises while you backtrack?
Complaints about my objection to the rule change.
Objecting to it on principle is not a game-relevant opinion. If it screws me over, so be it.
I'm not going to justify it any further, because I shouldn't have to.
You do, though. Because if you were Town, you would try to use the rules to win anyhow. That would involve making a case against NativeForeigner, who, if you were Town, you would know to be scum, but still refuse to make an actual case against.
Just admit that you're an idiot, and you'll retain some of your shattered dignity.
Oh, which means you've again proven yourself to be scum.
So even if the rules weren't changed and I'd execute NF, all of us would be available for kingship, right?
Because I'm going to execute NF, shouldn't he show up soon, defending himself against webadict and sharing his thoughts on Jim.
I'm not going to tolerate lurkers, no matter if this might make me lose. I'd still have the satisfaction of having figured out the scumteam.
And Jim, why don't you have anything on NF, as webadict has already pointed out?
Well, let's see. His Day 1 was decent, where he was active and engaged, but after that he turned quiet, and simply borrowed everybody else's suspicions and kept in the game only by doing mild prods that he didn't really bother following through with. He wasn't just latching onto webadict's suspicions, he was latching onto mine as well.
His dead silence today is pretty much confirmation that he's scum.
All that you said about NativeForeigner is true, and indeed, the only way for the town to win is for NativeForeigner to be lynched. So you don't even really need to listen to his responses, and I don't think he'll show up to give them.
I love your dedication towards trying to show Native is scum. I mean, you're just so wholeheartedly trying. Coward.
I've made the argument against him. Just leech it, why don't you?
Okay, so as far as a mid-game rule change goes, Toaster. I personally feel that it would be better to wait until the next game to change the rule. However, it's also a broken rule and that might warrant a mid-game change. So I'm not exactly certain on the change.
I am, however, noticing Wuba desperately trying to make himself look townie by promoting a pro-town movement and using Jim's decision to further his own goals. It looks like a bus to me, and Wuba wants to scare town into voting for it so that he'll be made king again and win the game for scum.
Is that the best you can muster for saying no to it? "No, because webadict might get Kinged instead of me."
See, I would figure you'd at least try to say that I'm making Jim look like your partner. At least it'd create some WIFOM arguments. But, that's weak, bra.
Watch and see if Mindmaker says yes, so will you. Baa baa, black sheep.
Reason #1 that NativeForeigner should be lynched:
I think a Jim&Webadict scumteam would be scary, seeing as they're both very experienced players, but entirely possible since the roles are decided randomly.
If NativeForeigner were Town, he would KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THIS WOULD BE THE SCUMTEAM. IT WOULD BE THE ONLY OPTION! Unfortunately, he really can't give the necessary acting it takes to believe such a thing, as he really only has one goal in mind: Lynch the webadict!
Not only do we get the "possibility" line, which shows how certain he is that I'm scum (He knows Jim's scum), but he even has the guts to pull out a "randomly decided" nonsense. That's right: He's using the worst statistical evidence he can muster! Let's not forget the amount of logical reasoning he provides: It's random!
This is the most passive line I have ever seen, in the most crucial time when he should be trying to lynch the scum.
I do know for certain this is the scumteam. Mindmaker, however, does not. I could go for either a Jim or Wuba lynch, but it's ultimately up to Mindmaker who, of the three of us, he decides to execute. He lynches one of you now and then the next king lynches the other. Town wins.
I use the possibility line because (again), while I know you and Jim are scum, Mindmaker does not. I'm not writing this for myself here, I'm writing this for Mindmaker to help him come to a decision. He asked me what I would think of a Jim/Wuba scumteam and I told him. I used words such as "possibility" because he, unlike me, doesn't know for certain. Every scumteam is random, Wuba. And you've both managed to stay under the radar this long. It's only come down to the process-of-elimination and your poor choices of "scum". I have a feeling that you only threw Jim in there with your suspicions to that if he got killed my the next day's king, you'd be off the hook for your previous four failed "gut-feelings".
Wait wait wait. Wait. Wait.
Did you just say that on Day 2, I suspected Jim in case TODAY he gets lynched? To cover up for my previous failures, one of which hadn't occurred at the time? And to that, why on Earth would I kill Pandarsenic to begin with? He was being scummy! And it would have made me look worse, like it's already doing! I realize that this argument is WIFOM, but use Occam's Razor! WHY ON EARTH WOULD I MAKE MYSELF LOOK WORSE?!?
And to everything else you said, no. Doing hypotheticals without addressing them as such is scummy.
Reason #2: Why lynch Jim when webadict will do?
I don't have much tells on Jim, but seeing as you haven't insta-lynched, that just leaves Jim and Wuba. I would also like to point out that all of Wuba's "gut-feelings" have turned out town. Four of them. No one he suspected was scum because he is scum and he apparently didn't choose to throw his partner into his list of suspects. Probably because he would be questioned for not going after them.
He has nothing on Jim Groovester, who should obviously be scum according to his own reasoning, but look at me! I'm clearly scum because four (?) people I've suspected were town! (Please note that this is both impossible and incorrect, but slightly off-topic.)
Oddly enough, if I were scum, and Jim were my partner, wouldn't he ALSO be guilty of "not going after his partner"? NativeForeigner doesn't mention this ONE BIT. NOPE! He's so set on me being lynched he COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY skips over Jim Groovester doing this, and focuses on me doing this. Because apparently, only I can be guilty of these things.
I really didn't have anything on Jim. The only way I know he's scum is because there's no other choice. Like I said earlier, either of you two being lynched would be equally good in my book. The only reason you warranted more attention was because I actually had a little on you other than process of elimination.
You also currently have nothing on Jim. You're not attacking him! You're not even trying to.
Okay, so if you would like to discredit Dariush towards your number of mistaken gut-feelings, that's fine. We'll even limit it to confirmed townies. That's still Zrk2, Pandar, and Jokerman. You probably only threw Jim in there so you would have a little more credibility should he have somehow flipped.
Zrk2 was justified (Which you admit), plus, again, Jokerman and Pandarsenic were NKed. Pandarsenic, who I had built up a solid case against on Day 2, coming into Day 3. Jokerman was really the only mistake.
Plus, Jim wouldn't have been able to flip until today.
Your points are seriously flawed.
He is guilty of not going after you just as much as you are for not going after him, even now, but you failed to give any reasoning above gut-feelings and "I'm king". At least Jim offered some sort of reasoning (even if he is scum).
? Not going after Jim Groovester? You mean when I used pure, unadulterated logic to prove he was scum? Oh, right. That makes about as much sense as saying that I killed Pandarsenic to make myself look like an idiot.
Also, please look above for the same quote I gave to Jim Groovester. On Day 2. And for the "I'm King" bit, please recheck your facts, and use quotes to prove it. Because you will fail, since I said that I only had to lynch scum.
Also, I'm glad to see you're DEFENDING JIM GROOVESTER. Confirmed Scum, Jim. Yep, that's him. Make a case for him yet? No? I thought not.
To start the day off, here's what I want to hear from everybody: Your current top two scum picks, and your reasons why.
This includes lazy non-participant Kingmakers.
I'd have to say Dariush because of his previous jumpiness and apparent inability to answer questions coupled with his general lack of effective scumhunting. He choses to complain about other people's tactics rather than apply his own. Webadict is my second choice. Even though he gave a good reasoning for voting Zrk2, he failed to explain why he suspected Jokerman and Pandar. Furthermore, not only did Zrk2 flip town, but Jokerman, one of his suspects, flipped town as well. While it's not a very strong argument, it brings my attention to him but my suspicion towards him is less than that towards Dariush.
I'd like to note Pandarsenic's lack of scumhunting has not been brought up, yet Dariush's has. Dariush also lives in an odd timezone, making it look like he's lurking and avoiding questions, when he's really catching up at the end of each day. Jumpiness would also describe Pandarsenic when I said he was scum with no reasoning at all, who probably will complain about midterms and continue to have less CPP (Content Per Post) than Dariush does, who's at least attempted to give something to the community.
However, I'd still rather he be dead, or at least replaced.
And you're argument for me is... How do I put this to make you sound like like a moron... moronic? I'm your second choice because I lynched town would maybe be an okay answer. Not great, but not horrible. However, because I thought Jokerman-EXE might be scum and him turning up town is stupid. No, think about it: If I felt Dariush, Pandarsenic, and Jokerman-EXE were scum, then if they weren't all scum, I'd be scummy? Well, seeing as there's two scum, I'd like to note the apparent crap in your argument: You conveniently left out Dariush to make that argument sound, because otherwise it makes no sense to begin with. You might as well accuse everyone here for not trusting everyone else but their suspects as scummy.
Please, also note that I was the one after Dariush and has probably supplied you with most of your rhetoric in your argument. I'm the one that pointed out Dariush as not answering questions, and for him failing to go into details. Basically, everything you might be accusing Dariush of can originate to me. But, if you feel I'm scum, how can you trust an argument like that?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
This post GET NO RESPONSE from you. It actually gets a response from Jim Groovester, oddly enough, but that's probably more of an accident than anything else.
You, Native, don't reply to it, but you reference a nearby post while talking about Pandarsenic. I mean, Native, just who did you suspect anyhow? You seem to latch onto other people's arguments and use them as your own. At least Jim tried to make up some arguments for Dariush yesterday (except for the whole FOUR HOURS IS ENOUGH time, plus a whole paragraph's worth of reasoning [I GAVE A WHOLE ESSAY WORTH! AND I WAS CONVINCED! Jim just sat there and tried to pawn off 4 hours worth of time as reasonable]).
I think I actually missed this. If you want me to still respond to it I will.
I suspected Pandarsenic somewhat. I wasn't fully convinced on Dariush, and I suspected you less than Dariush but more than Pandar. Yes, I do tend to use other people's arguments, but only to try to expand on them and make it into my own. I only do this is I don't have an argument of my own to use. Your entire essay was what kept me from immediately pointing you out as scum. It was completely reasonable and believable. The fact that the majority of your other suspects, which you couldn't fully explain, worked against you.
Same boring stuff as usual, I see.
Because if I were scum, I would make myself look like a scumbag instead of town by killing off my suspects. And I totally didn't have rational arguments against the one I lynched.
Please, simply reset your broken record, so that I can, again, repeat the same things I told you, while I make more and more arguments against you.
I'd have to say Dariush because of his previous jumpiness and apparent inability to answer questions coupled with his general lack of effective scumhunting. He choses to complain about other people's tactics rather than apply his own. Webadict is my second choice. Even though he gave a good reasoning for voting Zrk2, he failed to explain why he suspected Jokerman and Pandar. Furthermore, not only did Zrk2 flip town, but Jokerman, one of his suspects, flipped town as well. While it's not a very strong argument, it brings my attention to him but my suspicion towards him is less than that towards Dariush.
Webadict, now that you're not king, would you mind explaining why you suspected Jokerman and Pandar?
Suddenly, Zrk2 being lynched is a bad thing. He's also incredibly flip-floppy about it the entire time, explaining that it's both bad that I lynched him, but good I gave reasons, despite him suspecting the exact same person, a fact he makes no mention of.
Yes, I suspected Zrk2 at one point, but I was flip-floppy about it because I had just played a game with him where he was absolutely terrible town, so I had trouble reading him and making sure whether he was scum or scummy town. I didn't suspect him by the time you made your decision. In fact, what got me was that he wasn't even one of the three in your "three way tie" between three other townies. You pretty much mentioned them and then came back later and lynched Zrk2 out of the blue while completely disregarding any questions he had for you. Most notably the questions about your scumpicks and what you would do as scum king.
So, can I get a confirmation about how my reasoning is no longer valid anymore, despite you claiming it was? Just so I can add backtracking to my long list of complaints about you.
Oh, and I explained this very point somewhere earlier. You seem to miss a lot of posts, don't you? Are you even going to read them?
Jim: Before you decide on Dariush, I would like you to please restate your case on him and then provide your two runner ups and why, including why you might be choosing Dariush above them.
Ottofar: Me, of course. But aside from me, I really don't know. Pandar and MindMaker lurk too much and Dariush is probably getting lynched today, so if I had to pick between those three, I'd probably go to a random number generator because they're all equally sucky choices in my opinion. Either that, or I'd go with Pandar because he's the most experienced.
Pandarsenic is also a good idea, one that I made the case for, and Dariush is just one he's latching onto. His Mindmaker one is just the worst case I can see, but he's willing to RANDOMLY CHOOSE ONE OF THOSE THREE. (Also, slight tangent, but he does exactly what he accused me of doing: Avoiding his partner [Hypocrite])
Wait, what? I'm not really sure what you're saying here. He asked who I thought he should king. I gave him an honest answer, even though I had a limited number of choices. I even mentioned how they were all equally bad choices. I didn't mention Jim because he was the current king, so he couldn't be king again, and neither could you.
That looked, to me, a list of people you were currently suspecting. Especially since you list them as lurky, and someone getting lynched. You also list them as equally sucky choices. And it doesn't make any sense for it to be a list of people you would want Kinged, because you just said you suspected Pandarsenic and Dariush.
You know, SLIGHTLY ABOVE THIS VERY PORTION OF YOUR POST.
I suspected Pandarsenic somewhat. I wasn't fully convinced on Dariush, and I suspected you less than Dariush but more than Pandar. Yes, I do tend to use other people's arguments, but only to try to expand on them and make it into my own. I only do this is I don't have an argument of my own to use. Your entire essay was what kept me from immediately pointing you out as scum. It was completely reasonable and believable. The fact that the majority of your other suspects, which you couldn't fully explain, worked against you.
So, what do you say about that? Gonna change your mind?
Please note that Pandarsenic is bad here (He's part of the four: Jokerman-EXE, Dariush, Pandarsenic, and Zrk2, I believe). So, why is that bad? Didn't he ALSO THINK THAT ZRK2, DARIUSH, PANDARSENIC, AND MINDMAKER WERE SCUM? Let's avoid using rationales that you fail to satisfy.
Wuba, you're just digging now. I did suspect all of them (except Mindmaker) at one point, but I couldn't bring myself to believe that Zrk2 was scum, I did think Dariush was scum, and Pandar was too inactive for me to get a good read.
Kiss-up. So, you never really thought anyone was scum at all, did you? Because right before this you say you weren't convinced about Dariush:
I suspected Pandarsenic somewhat. I wasn't fully convinced on Dariush, and I suspected you less than Dariush but more than Pandar. Yes, I do tend to use other people's arguments, but only to try to expand on them and make it into my own. I only do this is I don't have an argument of my own to use. Your entire essay was what kept me from immediately pointing you out as scum. It was completely reasonable and believable. The fact that the majority of your other suspects, which you couldn't fully explain, worked against you.
So, which is it again? This is TWICE you've straight-up contradicted yourself in a single post.
He announced on the weekend that he was going to lynch Monday. Weekends are notoriously quiet, and he knows that. Monday, even though it was a holiday, is incredibly quiet at around noon. That particular Monday might as well count as part of a weekend. He gave four hours to defend, provided no in-depth analysis for his lynch, and defended it by saying, "Shoulda asked for more time," instead of GIVING AN ANALYSIS or doing something else.
Not only that, but I'll note NativeForeigner's last statement of the Day:
So, Ottofar, King me and I will lynch Pandarsenic faster than anything else. It's not even a debate. He deserves nothing.
You've been king already, wuba. He can't king you.
NativeForeigner attempts to use rules abuse to allow himself to be kinged, probably his overall plan by killing one of the remaining un-Kinged Townies. He made no attempt to question Jim at that point (And still fails to go after him for real), and now he's still trying to persuade you to lynch me, since he can't find anything suspicious about Jim (HELLO, HOW ABOUT YESTERDAY'S LYNCH?)
Mindmaker, this decision is mindbogglingly easy, and the fact that you don't see it disturbs me. The whole reason I pointed out the King rule was to make sure the Town could win, which is obviously what NativeForeigner was trying to exploit. Jim Groovester still provides little less than crap reasoning for Dariush, with nothing near anywhere explained except that "I should've said something" while I wasn't there.
Am I really that scummy that you can't see this?
You're absolutely right. Pointing out a rule to you means I'm trying to abuse it. I questioned Jim previously and I felt it was pointless to question him anymore that day after he had made his decision. I didn't get much of a chance to do so today either.
PPE: Jim, sorry, but it takes a while to reply to walls.
You questioned Jim previously? Wanna bring up some posts to show how in-depth you questioned him?
P.S. You didn't attack Jim with this post either. Congratulations on reinforcing the "Gang-attack webadict" Theory. It has slowly and steadily gained more and more weight.
You don't have a monopoly on arguments. If my argument resembles yours, maybe that's because it's what NativeForeigner is scum for.
I suppose what I have is a monopoly on being attacked. Right? Or does your paragraph count as an attack? At least with your last post, you don't point out how Native didn't respond to it. That would certainly be bad for you, wouldn't it?
Author
Topic: Kingmaker Mafia- Season 3! Game over! (Read 38089 times)