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[webadict]

I know it's not that impressive for a WoT, but here's one.

Not really. Yes, process of elimination is great and all, but there's simply more to it than that. There is, in fact, plenty to do before he gets here. At least one of us is Town, and if exactly one of us are Town, that means the King is, in fact, town.

This is a moot point since Mindmaker's here now, but did you really want to have a giant pissing match before we knew whether or not it really matters?

I would have, but I had to go. And yes, because if I were scum, and I knew my partner had been Kinged at lylo, I would've made fun of the Town. I mean, they've already lost. There's no point in dragging it out.

Well let's see:
Jim has been been suspicoious about webadict for a very long time and even though it doesn't look like he's getting satisfying answer he desists from questioning him further?
Why? I mean there's a number of reasons I can think of, but I'd like to hear it from your mouth.

Because the answers were satisfying, to some extent, or I knew I wasn't going to get anything more out of webadict. Gut feelings are fine enough reasons to suspect people, or at least to start with, but they leave little room for further discussion. That's what most of webadict's suspicions this game have been: gut feelings.

Jokerman-EXE: Gut feeling
Pandarsenic: Gut feeling (on Day 1)
Jim Groovester: Gut feeling
NativeForeigner: Gut feeling

There was nothing to question about what he was doing with Pandarsenic on Day 2, and after I got the gut feeling answers for all his other suspicions, there was no point in asking further.

Technically, I simply pointed you out because I wanted you to be wary of me. Had I known I'd be right... Well, that would've been awesome.

And technically, it did work. I'm still alive. The person that could best make a case against both of you. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to deal with Mindmaker probably believing NativeForeigner is more likely Town, despite NativeForeigner not really giving a crap Day 2 onward. Oh disappointing.

Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Jim, Webadict, what does strike you as odd about NF?

He's been very quiet and has actually done very little scumhunting. Day 2 especially, he tried to hide and do nothing.

I can't really disagree with Jim here, but I can be disappointed by his lack of wanting to lynch him. Seriously. You'd think he'd try to pretend he was Town, but he doesn't.

Let me explain, in case you've forgotten: One of me, NativeForeigner, and Jim Groovester is Town. That means the other two are the Mafia. Let's see who they give lackluster attacks to, and who they REALLY want to have lynched.

Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Jim, Webadict, what does strike you as odd about NF?
Also NF, your thoughts regarding a Jim&Webadict scumteam?

I think a Jim&Webadict scumteam would be scary, seeing as they're both very experienced players, but entirely possible since the roles are decided randomly. I don't have much tells on Jim, but seeing as you haven't insta-lynched, that just leaves Jim and Wuba. I would also like to point out that all of Wuba's "gut-feelings" have turned out town. Four of them. No one he suspected was scum because he is scum and he apparently didn't choose  to throw his partner into his list of suspects. Probably because he would be questioned for not going after them.

Reason #1 that NativeForeigner should be lynched:

I think a Jim&Webadict scumteam would be scary, seeing as they're both very experienced players, but entirely possible since the roles are decided randomly.

If NativeForeigner were Town, he would KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THIS WOULD BE THE SCUMTEAM. IT WOULD BE THE ONLY OPTION! Unfortunately, he really can't give the necessary acting it takes to believe such a thing, as he really only has one goal in mind: Lynch the webadict!

Not only do we get the "possibility" line, which shows how certain he is that I'm scum (He knows Jim's scum), but he even has the guts to pull out a "randomly decided" nonsense. That's right: He's using the worst statistical evidence he can muster! Let's not forget the amount of logical reasoning he provides: It's random!

This is the most passive line I have ever seen, in the most crucial time when he should be trying to lynch the scum.

Reason #2: Why lynch Jim when webadict will do?

I don't have much tells on Jim, but seeing as you haven't insta-lynched, that just leaves Jim and Wuba. I would also like to point out that all of Wuba's "gut-feelings" have turned out town. Four of them. No one he suspected was scum because he is scum and he apparently didn't choose  to throw his partner into his list of suspects. Probably because he would be questioned for not going after them.

He has nothing on Jim Groovester, who should obviously be scum according to his own reasoning, but look at me! I'm clearly scum because four (?) people I've suspected were town! (Please note that this is both impossible and incorrect, but slightly off-topic.)

Oddly enough, if I were scum, and Jim were my partner, wouldn't he ALSO be guilty of "not going after his partner"? NativeForeigner doesn't mention this ONE BIT. NOPE! He's so set on me being lynched he COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY skips over Jim Groovester doing this, and focuses on me doing this. Because apparently, only I can be guilty of these things.

urther.

Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Jim, Webadict, what does strike you as odd about NF?

He's been very quiet and has actually done very little scumhunting. Day 2 especially, he tried to hide and do nothing.

I was more active D1 than D2, yes, but I was somewhat busy during D2. I still made my posts, I confronted Dariush about his actions, questioned Jim about his choice before he made it, and tried to get anything out of Pandar, but I ultimately wasn't very active D2, unfortunately. But I certainly didn't try to hide and do nothing.

You kind of did. You hardly went after me then, hardly went after Pandarsenic, hardly went after Jim Groovester, and hardly did anything but try to take cover. I can point out a few posts for you, if you care to look:

To start the day off, here's what I want to hear from everybody: Your current top two scum picks, and your reasons why.

This includes lazy non-participant Kingmakers.

I'd have to say Dariush because of his previous jumpiness and apparent inability to answer questions coupled with his general lack of effective scumhunting. He choses to complain about other people's tactics rather than apply his own. Webadict is my second choice. Even though he gave a good reasoning for voting Zrk2, he failed to explain why he suspected Jokerman and Pandar. Furthermore, not only did Zrk2 flip town, but Jokerman, one of his suspects, flipped town as well. While it's not a very strong argument, it brings my attention to him but my suspicion towards him is less than that towards Dariush.

I'd like to note Pandarsenic's lack of scumhunting has not been brought up, yet Dariush's has. Dariush also lives in an odd timezone, making it look like he's lurking and avoiding questions, when he's really catching up at the end of each day. Jumpiness would also describe Pandarsenic when I said he was scum with no reasoning at all, who probably will complain about midterms and continue to have less CPP (Content Per Post) than Dariush does, who's at least attempted to give something to the community.

However, I'd still rather he be dead, or at least replaced.

And you're argument for me is... How do I put this to make you sound like like a moron... moronic? I'm your second choice because I lynched town would maybe be an okay answer. Not great, but not horrible. However, because I thought Jokerman-EXE might be scum and him turning up town is stupid. No, think about it: If I felt Dariush, Pandarsenic, and Jokerman-EXE were scum, then if they weren't all scum, I'd be scummy? Well, seeing as there's two scum, I'd like to note the apparent crap in your argument: You conveniently left out Dariush to make that argument sound, because otherwise it makes no sense to begin with. You might as well accuse everyone here for not trusting everyone else but their suspects as scummy.

Please, also note that I was the one after Dariush and has probably supplied you with most of your rhetoric in your argument. I'm the one that pointed out Dariush as not answering questions, and for him failing to go into details. Basically, everything you might be accusing Dariush of can originate to me. But, if you feel I'm scum, how can you trust an argument like that?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

This post GET NO RESPONSE from you. It actually gets a response from Jim Groovester, oddly enough, but that's probably more of an accident than anything else.

You, Native, don't reply to it, but you reference a nearby post while talking about Pandarsenic. I mean, Native, just who did you suspect anyhow? You seem to latch onto other people's arguments and use them as your own. At least Jim tried to make up some arguments for Dariush yesterday (except for the whole FOUR HOURS IS ENOUGH time, plus a whole paragraph's worth of reasoning [I GAVE A WHOLE ESSAY WORTH! AND I WAS CONVINCED! Jim just sat there and tried to pawn off 4 hours worth of time as reasonable]).

So, I will always say it's justified. And it should be, unless you find a very good reason for not doing it.

All it does is giving you a lynching immunity for a day and if you're of any worth to town, it won't hold any longer than that (because of scum).
If you were kingmkaer, would you claim on day 1? And do you believe you would survive the night, if you did?

Also, don't forget your other question.

About your views on Dariush:
Did you just threaten to lynch him because you actually thought he was a bad townie and needed some "motivation"? If not, what made to change your mind on D2?
I reall hope the answer isn't "gut feeling" again...

Hmm... Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure if I would claim. It depends on the King and the rationale he would give, and I would know that I should claim. Ottofar, however, felt like the Kingmaker should claim, which worked out in the end what with him being Kingmaker.

Do I suspect to survive? Not likely. Scum me wouldn't want confirmed Town me to be alive.

First part, kind of. I was hoping a threat might motivate him to participate more, because I felt other people deserved to be lynched more. What changed my mind was that he did participate more, despite refusing to answer my initial question. I also had a gut feeling it was just really bad play (yeah, yeah, boohoo), and he wasn't lying about being in a different time zone, as he was consistent about when he posted.

Because the answers were satisfying, to some extent, or I knew I wasn't going to get anything more out of webadict. Gut feelings are fine enough reasons to suspect people, or at least to start with, but they leave little room for further discussion. That's what most of webadict's suspicions this game have been: gut feelings.

Jokerman-EXE: Gut feeling
Pandarsenic: Gut feeling (on Day 1)
Jim Groovester: Gut feeling
NativeForeigner: Gut feeling

There was nothing to question about what he was doing with Pandarsenic on Day 2, and after I got the gut feeling answers for all his other suspicions, there was no point in asking further.

I'd agree if it had been one or two, but that's just a tad to many.

Um, to be fair, that's incorrect, but also half of those are, in fact, scum. I was justified in suspecting Pandarsenic and Zrk2, too. Jokerman and Dariush were wrong in the end, but I can't say I was too worried about the first, and I was trying to rectify it with the second.

Oh and penny for you thoughts on this theory:
Well it's known that both you and Webadict are both experienced players. So the gut feeling of such a player, has some weigth.
So it was you, who's been questioning the scumpicks of webadict, until shortly after they turned out to be wrong.
By withdrawing your suspicions, after they flipped town, you admitted that there was nothing wrong with them and the other players decided to trust your superior judgement.
Next day you did the old switch-a-roo, which then worked equally well.

Webadict, feel free to comment on this as well.

CERTAINLY!

I really can't tell whether or not this is blazing sarcasm.

Zrk2, you're painting yourself to be a decent candidate to be executed. Probably the only way to save yourself is to find someone scummier than you, which doesn't seem likely right now. Who are your top scumpicks and why? (Sorry if I already asked this, I forget things over the weekend).

My exact suspects at the time. I first made the case on Zrk2, and was pushing Dariush the entire Day.

I'd have to say Dariush because of his previous jumpiness and apparent inability to answer questions coupled with his general lack of effective scumhunting. He choses to complain about other people's tactics rather than apply his own. Webadict is my second choice. Even though he gave a good reasoning for voting Zrk2, he failed to explain why he suspected Jokerman and Pandar. Furthermore, not only did Zrk2 flip town, but Jokerman, one of his suspects, flipped town as well. While it's not a very strong argument, it brings my attention to him but my suspicion towards him is less than that towards Dariush.

Webadict, now that you're not king, would you mind explaining why you suspected Jokerman and Pandar?

Suddenly, Zrk2 being lynched is a bad thing. He's also incredibly flip-floppy about it the entire time, explaining that it's both bad that I lynched him, but good I gave reasons, despite him suspecting the exact same person, a fact he makes no mention of.

Jim: Before you decide on Dariush, I would like you to please restate your case on him and then provide your two runner ups and why, including why you might be choosing Dariush above them.

Ottofar: Me, of course. But aside from me, I really don't know. Pandar and MindMaker lurk too much and Dariush is probably getting lynched today, so if I had to pick between those three, I'd probably go to a random number generator because they're all equally sucky choices in my opinion. Either that, or I'd go with Pandar because he's the most experienced.

Pandarsenic is also a good idea, one that I made the case for, and Dariush is just one he's latching onto. His Mindmaker one is just the worst case I can see, but he's willing to RANDOMLY CHOOSE ONE OF THOSE THREE. (Also, slight tangent, but he does exactly what he accused me of doing: Avoiding his partner [Hypocrite])

I think a Jim&Webadict scumteam would be scary, seeing as they're both very experienced players, but entirely possible since the roles are decided randomly. I don't have much tells on Jim, but seeing as you haven't insta-lynched, that just leaves Jim and Wuba. I would also like to point out that all of Wuba's "gut-feelings" have turned out town. Four of them. No one he suspected was scum because he is scum and he apparently didn't choose  to throw his partner into his list of suspects. Probably because he would be questioned for not going after them.

Please note that Pandarsenic is bad here (He's part of the four: Jokerman-EXE, Dariush, Pandarsenic, and Zrk2, I believe). So, why is that bad? Didn't he ALSO THINK THAT ZRK2, DARIUSH, PANDARSENIC, AND MINDMAKER WERE SCUM? Let's avoid using rationales that you fail to satisfy.

Oh and penny for you thoughts on this theory:
Well it's known that both you and Webadict are both experienced players. So the gut feeling of such a player, has some weigth.
So it was you, who's been questioning the scumpicks of webadict, until shortly after they turned out to be wrong.
By withdrawing your suspicions, after they flipped town, you admitted that there was nothing wrong with them and the other players decided to trust your superior judgement.
Next day you did the old switch-a-roo, which then worked equally well.

Webadict, feel free to comment on this as well.

I don't know what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

I think you're suggesting that I was fine with webadict having crappy suspicions but now I'm suddenly not. Him having gut feelings for crappy suspicions wasn't worth lynching him over when he had one very strong one (Pandarsenic) and was working at it in a reasonable fashion, and Dariush was acting scummier.

Now, obviously, things have changed. Even if he wasn't one of only two choices for being scum, I would still think he was the likeliest candidate. Dropping gut feelings around everywhere isn't sufficient, and then he had a change of heart about Dariush after I decided to execute him, which surprises me because webadict was very nearly ready to lynch him on Day 1, before he decided to have a change of heart about that too.

You mean here, when I started to defend him?

To start the day off, here's what I want to hear from everybody: Your current top two scum picks, and your reasons why.

This includes lazy non-participant Kingmakers.

I'd have to say Dariush because of his previous jumpiness and apparent inability to answer questions coupled with his general lack of effective scumhunting. He choses to complain about other people's tactics rather than apply his own. Webadict is my second choice. Even though he gave a good reasoning for voting Zrk2, he failed to explain why he suspected Jokerman and Pandar. Furthermore, not only did Zrk2 flip town, but Jokerman, one of his suspects, flipped town as well. While it's not a very strong argument, it brings my attention to him but my suspicion towards him is less than that towards Dariush.

I'd like to note Pandarsenic's lack of scumhunting has not been brought up, yet Dariush's has. Dariush also lives in an odd timezone, making it look like he's lurking and avoiding questions, when he's really catching up at the end of each day. Jumpiness would also describe Pandarsenic when I said he was scum with no reasoning at all, who probably will complain about midterms and continue to have less CPP (Content Per Post) than Dariush does, who's at least attempted to give something to the community.

However, I'd still rather he be dead, or at least replaced.

Or do you mean here, when you gave four hours for defense?

If anybody has anything to say, you better say it. I'll make my decision in a couple of hours.

Especially when Dariush doesn't get on until later, a fact he has stated - and I've restated - several times. Which means he didn't really analyze facts, so much as make it seem like he cared about what we had to say by giving an arbitrary time limit that was during a time that is relatively quiet anyhow, and definitely not during a time Dariush would be on to give an opinion against the fact. So, he tried to make the most non-confrontational lynch ever, using a paragraph's worth of reasoning. And I called him out on it afterward.

He was a giant sack of uselessness and passiveness on Day 1, and on Day 2 he's not doing much better. Then he's trying to blend in with everybody else for being wrong about Zrk2, and trying to convince people that he always suspected Zrk2 even though he spent a good majority of his scumhunting on Day 1 trying to build a case on Ottofar, and there's only really post which can be loosely interpreted as him suspecting Zrk2. Then he said he didn't want to be accused of bandwagoning, so he didn't say he suspected Zrk2.

Passive, inconsistent or unclear suspicions, and actively avoiding suspicion.

Not only is this completely unacceptable, but he provides no quotes. He makes no attempt to show that he examined Dariush and found nothing other than that Dariush was scum. HE EVEN WAS FOLLOWING ME. I gave as much insight to my rationale for lynching him as possible, because I wanted everyone to know that I thought it was perfectly acceptable to lynch him. He came up Town. Oh no. Does that make my reasoning flawed? NO! I did all that work to show that I'm not afraid to be looked over, and to provide the most in-depth reasoning possible. And you want to know what? I haven't had anyone point out my reasoning as suspicious in the least!

So, the only thing Jim Groovester and NativeForeigner can point out is that I lynched Town. They've haven't shown my rationale to be flawed at all, and that's the only way it could be considered scummy.

Jim Groovester somehow tries to defend the fact that taking too much time is bad. I feel differently, which is why it took me more than a week to make a decision. His counterpoint to pointing out his bad lynch is this:

You mean the time when you said that blah blah blah? Blah, blah blah. Blah bl'ah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah.

Keep thrashing and raging about it if it makes you feel better.

You've had enough time to make whatever point you're trying to make. It's not my problem if poor WUBA can't make a decision or a convincing case in less than a week.

He announced on the weekend that he was going to lynch Monday. Weekends are notoriously quiet, and he knows that. Monday, even though it was a holiday, is incredibly quiet at around noon. That particular Monday might as well count as part of a weekend. He gave four hours to defend, provided no in-depth analysis for his lynch, and defended it by saying, "Shoulda asked for more time," instead of GIVING AN ANALYSIS or doing something else.

Not only that, but I'll note NativeForeigner's last statement of the Day:

So, Ottofar, King me and I will lynch Pandarsenic faster than anything else. It's not even a debate. He deserves nothing.

You've been king already, wuba. He can't king you.

NativeForeigner attempts to use rules abuse to allow himself to be kinged, probably his overall plan by killing one of the remaining un-Kinged Townies. He made no attempt to question Jim at that point (And still fails to go after him for real), and now he's still trying to persuade you to lynch me, since he can't find anything suspicious about Jim (HELLO, HOW ABOUT YESTERDAY'S LYNCH?)

Mindmaker, this decision is mindbogglingly easy, and the fact that you don't see it disturbs me. The whole reason I pointed out the King rule was to make sure the Town could win, which is obviously what NativeForeigner was trying to exploit. Jim Groovester still provides little less than crap reasoning for Dariush, with nothing near anywhere explained except that "I should've said something" while I wasn't there.

Am I really that scummy that you can't see this?

[webadict]

Well, I hate to change the rules midgame, but I can remove the limit if the game goes to night tonight and no one objects.

Quick question: Is that going to be changed? Because I've given a scenario for every possibility for why it needs to be. Not to mention the actual one.

Well let's see:
Jim has been been suspicoious about webadict for a very long time and even though it doesn't look like he's getting satisfying answer he desists from questioning him further?
Why? I mean there's a number of reasons I can think of, but I'd like to hear it from your mouth.

Also webadict, you still haven't properly explained why you had Jokerman on you list of suspects. Anything you'd like to add to that gut-feeling of yours?

All in all, the rivalry between webadict and Jim, get's less and less convincing as the game goes on. Just saying.

Jokerman was pretty much a gut feeling. He wasn't participating as much, and seemed to be playing passively. Is that any better? Because that's as far as I can manage to explain it.

My rivalry? I'm not trying to have a rivalry. I was going after who I believed was the most likely to be scum at the time. Those would be Pandarsenic and NativeForeigner. Pandarsenic was playing like ToonyMan and deserved to be lynched. I would've been wrong about it, but that was how I felt. NativeForeigner was further down on my list, and Jim Groovester was the lowest. He only moved up when he lynched Dariush on terrible reasoning and with the death of Pandarsenic.

So, there isn't supposed to be a rivalry to begin with. It's like saying that I never pushed you that much, so I am likely to be your scum partner. That has nothing to do with being a scumteam. It works better as soon as you find a scum player, because then it has merit.

I might as well have said that I was a scumteam with Dariush for defending him Yesterday. I defended him because I didn't think he was scum.

[Toaster]

Well, I hate to change the rules midgame, but I can remove the limit if the game goes to night tonight and no one objects.

Quick question: Is that going to be changed? Because I've given a scenario for every possibility for why it needs to be. Not to mention the actual one.

I'd like to hear from everyone else on the matter.

[Jim Groovester]

Because the answers were satisfying, to some extent, or I knew I wasn't going to get anything more out of webadict. Gut feelings are fine enough reasons to suspect people, or at least to start with, but they leave little room for further discussion. That's what most of webadict's suspicions this game have been: gut feelings.

Jokerman-EXE: Gut feeling
Pandarsenic: Gut feeling (on Day 1)
Jim Groovester: Gut feeling
NativeForeigner: Gut feeling

There was nothing to question about what he was doing with Pandarsenic on Day 2, and after I got the gut feeling answers for all his other suspicions, there was no point in asking further.

I'd agree if it had been one or two, but that's just a tad to many.

Um, to be fair, that's incorrect, but also half of those are, in fact, scum. I was justified in suspecting Pandarsenic and Zrk2, too. Jokerman and Dariush were wrong in the end, but I can't say I was too worried about the first, and I was trying to rectify it with the second.

The point wasn't whether or not you were justified in suspecting any of the people on the list, it's that you provided no reason for suspecting them at all. If you had bothered to explain why you suspected any of them beyond a gut feeling, you'd be in better shape.

It's certainly not a problem with you being able to express yourself, since you apparently can summon a wall of text on command to detail why you think somebody is scum. The ability certainly is there.

You've got an inconsistency with the flimsiness of all your gut feelings and the depth of suspicion for all your other suspects. So what's the problem? You only put in the amount of effort required to get you through the day? Doesn't seem like you're that interested in finding scum if that's the case.

Long rants about my execution of Dariush, particularly the timing of it.

How about this: Deal with it. As you were so eager to point out during Day 1, the King's opinion was the only one that mattered. I lynched on a timetable I thought was appropriate, and I made sure to give everybody a reasonable amount of time to work. This evidently was not enough for you. You're the only person who's complaining about it, and since you pretty much complain about anything at any time, and since it's just a matter of personal preference anyway I don't really see a problem.

You mean here, when I started to defend him?

I'd like to note Pandarsenic's lack of scumhunting has not been brought up, yet Dariush's has. Dariush also lives in an odd timezone, making it look like he's lurking and avoiding questions, when he's really catching up at the end of each day. Jumpiness would also describe Pandarsenic when I said he was scum with no reasoning at all, who probably will complain about midterms and continue to have less CPP (Content Per Post) than Dariush does, who's at least attempted to give something to the community.

Is that what you were doing there? That's a pretty tepid defense, and pointed out things I already knew about Dariush. You were pretty silent about, oh, everything else. And don't tell me that you didn't have enough time. You were around on the weekend. If you wanted to defend Dariush you could have. Claiming that you did is disingenuous.

Were any of my reasons for lynching Dariush flawed? Your only issues seem to be the timing, which I explained you can deal with it, and that I didn't make a giant wall of text that listed every single post of Dariush and in no uncertain terms detailed why I thought he was scum.

The problem with that is that I was picking at Dariush the whole day. I don't save my scumhunting until the very last moment for when I make a lynch. I summarized the arguments I thought were most telling for my case against him and left it at that.

So, essentially, you just don't like how I did things. Not a compelling reason to suspect anyone, really.

Well, I hate to change the rules midgame, but I can remove the limit if the game goes to night tonight and no one objects.

Quick question: Is that going to be changed? Because I've given a scenario for every possibility for why it needs to be. Not to mention the actual one.

I'd like to hear from everyone else on the matter.

I object to it on principle. If the rules need to be changed, they can wait for the game to end.

It's pretty damn tacky and disrespectful to demand rule changes in the middle of the game.

[webadict]

MINDMAKER: Do not lynch just yet. You will find out to what lengths this scumteam will go in order to win. I will show you.

Because the answers were satisfying, to some extent, or I knew I wasn't going to get anything more out of webadict. Gut feelings are fine enough reasons to suspect people, or at least to start with, but they leave little room for further discussion. That's what most of webadict's suspicions this game have been: gut feelings.

Jokerman-EXE: Gut feeling
Pandarsenic: Gut feeling (on Day 1)
Jim Groovester: Gut feeling
NativeForeigner: Gut feeling

There was nothing to question about what he was doing with Pandarsenic on Day 2, and after I got the gut feeling answers for all his other suspicions, there was no point in asking further.

I'd agree if it had been one or two, but that's just a tad to many.

Um, to be fair, that's incorrect, but also half of those are, in fact, scum. I was justified in suspecting Pandarsenic and Zrk2, too. Jokerman and Dariush were wrong in the end, but I can't say I was too worried about the first, and I was trying to rectify it with the second.

The point wasn't whether or not you were justified in suspecting any of the people on the list, it's that you provided no reason for suspecting them at all. If you had bothered to explain why you suspected any of them beyond a gut feeling, you'd be in better shape.

It's certainly not a problem with you being able to express yourself, since you apparently can summon a wall of text on command to detail why you think somebody is scum. The ability certainly is there.

You've got an inconsistency with the flimsiness of all your gut feelings and the depth of suspicion for all your other suspects. So what's the problem? You only put in the amount of effort required to get you through the day? Doesn't seem like you're that interested in finding scum if that's the case.

The point is I only lynch on evidence and suspect on gut feeling. Suspecting someone means about at little as how you care to make yourself look Townie. But, that's obviously not even your plan. Wanna know how I know? You basically gave away you and NativeForeigner as being the scumteam, and it's INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS.

In fact, if you skip to the very last part of this dissection, I'll show you. Dear God, are you low. You're also an idiot.

I only make Walls of Text for people I believe are scum, because they're the ones with evidence against them. Just because I feel like you're scum, does not: 1) make that person scum, or 2) means there's sufficient evidence to lynch them. Zrk2 was scummy, and he was validly justified. Day 1, I wasn't convinced enough about any of Jokerman, Dariush, or Pandarsenic to lynch. That's why I was sitting there looking at the names. They were scummy, but not nearly enough to constitute a lynch.

Long rants about my execution of Dariush, particularly the timing of it.

How about this: Deal with it. As you were so eager to point out during Day 1, the King's opinion was the only one that mattered. I lynched on a timetable I thought was appropriate, and I made sure to give everybody a reasonable amount of time to work. This evidently was not enough for you. You're the only person who's complaining about it, and since you pretty much complain about anything at any time, and since it's just a matter of personal preference anyway I don't really see a problem.

Which also makes you a hypocrite. It's NOT ABOUT THE KING'S OPINION. It's about whether the King hits scum, and you know it you. Because if you want to take my words out of context, I'll give you EXACTLY what I said:

Technically, no, I don't have to make a case. I simply have to lynch scum. Since I control the lynch, I don't even have to justify it. So, if I say there's a three-way tie, there's a three-way tie.

I said AS LONG AS I LYNCH SCUM. I didn't say, "Justify whoever you lynch however you want."

Four hours was not enough time. I'll even prove that you wanted to avoid confrontation with simple logic that you admit to.

You mean here, when I started to defend him?

I'd like to note Pandarsenic's lack of scumhunting has not been brought up, yet Dariush's has. Dariush also lives in an odd timezone, making it look like he's lurking and avoiding questions, when he's really catching up at the end of each day. Jumpiness would also describe Pandarsenic when I said he was scum with no reasoning at all, who probably will complain about midterms and continue to have less CPP (Content Per Post) than Dariush does, who's at least attempted to give something to the community.

Is that what you were doing there? That's a pretty tepid defense, and pointed out things I already knew about Dariush. You were pretty silent about, oh, everything else. And don't tell me that you didn't have enough time. You were around on the weekend. If you wanted to defend Dariush you could have. Claiming that you did is disingenuous.

Were any of my reasons for lynching Dariush flawed? Your only issues seem to be the timing, which I explained you can deal with it, and that I didn't make a giant wall of text that listed every single post of Dariush and in no uncertain terms detailed why I thought he was scum.

The problem with that is that I was picking at Dariush the whole day. I don't save my scumhunting until the very last moment for when I make a lynch. I summarized the arguments I thought were most telling for my case against him and left it at that.

So, essentially, you just don't like how I did things. Not a compelling reason to suspect anyone, really.

You're right. It was a bit of a small defense, but I'm glad you stated you knew most of it.

That means you knew he was in a different time zone and couldn't object to the lynch as he wouldn't have been on. That's incredibly scummy, don't you think? I didn't give Zrk2 any time to respond, but I posted a huge list of reasons why he should be lynched. There wasn't anything he was going to say to change my mind.

Dariush, however, was NOWHERE NEAR justified. Your reasons were:

He was a giant sack of uselessness and passiveness on Day 1, and on Day 2 he's not doing much better. Then he's trying to blend in with everybody else for being wrong about Zrk2, and trying to convince people that he always suspected Zrk2 even though he spent a good majority of his scumhunting on Day 1 trying to build a case on Ottofar, and there's only really post which can be loosely interpreted as him suspecting Zrk2. Then he said he didn't want to be accused of bandwagoning, so he didn't say he suspected Zrk2.

Passive, inconsistent or unclear suspicions, and actively avoiding suspicion.

It boils down to:
Day1 he was useless and passive. Day 2 is a slight improvement.
He tried to say Zrk2 was... a bad choice to lynch? He suspected him? I have no idea what you're saying.
He tried to lynch Ottofar because he didn't know the rules.
He tried to avoid bandwagoning.

Four points. You lynched him for four points. You could've made more points about me, but you didn't. You can't even justify not trying to make this into something bigger, because you have no care about who you lynched. You only lynched based on who you could get away with.

Not to mention this whole post was pretty much a terrible defense. Wanna know why? You're giving up all your hope that you placed in getting NativeForeigner Kinged and placing it into rules abuse. You're not attacking me very hard. You're not attacking Nativeforeigner at all (SCUMTEAM!) And, you're definitely not even trying anymore. I, however, am wasting hours making sure I build a case against you and NativeForeigner. Neither you nor NativeForeigner can say the same thing, since you have only tried half-heartedly to defend yourself here, and NativeForeigner, who was on when I posted, since he managed to post in BYOR 5.5 after I updated, which was AFTER I POSTED HERE.

You are, without a doubt, the laziest and worst scumteam I've played against. If you at least tried to make a case, you could probably persuade Mindmaker, since he probably least trusts me out of all of you. But, no. You're going to sit back while I hit you over and over again. Pansies.

Well, I hate to change the rules midgame, but I can remove the limit if the game goes to night tonight and no one objects.

Quick question: Is that going to be changed? Because I've given a scenario for every possibility for why it needs to be. Not to mention the actual one.

I'd like to hear from everyone else on the matter.

I object to it on principle. If the rules need to be changed, they can wait for the game to end.

It's pretty damn tacky and disrespectful to demand rule changes in the middle of the game.

It's tacky and disrespectful to demand rule changes that, if you were a Townie, you would DESPERATELY WANT?

If you were a Townie and read my simulation, you would come to this conclusion. The fact you didn't means you have no idea how to play as scum.

These are our premises that are guaranteed to be true:
Only 1 of webadict, Jim Groovester, and NativeForeigner is Town.
webadict has been King.
Jim Groovester has been King.
People cannot be re-Kinged.

Therefore, this can be surmised:
Only NativeForeigner can be Kinged, unless he is lynched.

Why on Earth would Jim Groovester not want to change the rule if only NativeForeigner can be re-Kinged. It's been stated over and over again that NativeForeigner would be the only applicant available. However, if Jim Groovester were Town, he would want to make sure the rule was changed. If he were Town, NativeForeigner would be scum, and having the only choice for King being scum would be Game Over for any Town. I can therefore summarize that Jim Groovester is NOT TOWN.

Jim Groovester is scum. Guaranteed by this logic.

Unfortunately, that's why I also need to prove that NativeForeigner is also scum unless the rule can be changed. If the rule cannot be changed, due to NativeForeigner also disagreeing to change it, then he would have to be lynched.

So, Ottofar, Mindmaker: Vote to change the rule.

Jim Groovester hopes that the rule won't be changed, so that he or I could be lynched, so that only NativeForeigner can be Kinged, so that he will win. If the rule is changed, then Jim Groovester can be lynched, leaving tomorrow with me, NativeForeigner, and one of Mindmaker of Ottofar (I can't die, since that would leave two confirmed Towns with NativeForeigner).

It doesn't prove NativeForeigner is scum, but I'm hoping his posting (or lack thereof) will. He hasn't bothered trying to post yet, and I'm not sure why any Town would wait. I'm not. I know there can be only two choices for scum. And I'm going to make sure they get lynched.

One scum down. One to go.

[Ottofar]

Obviously yes for the change.

I  said yes earlier, but apparently no post happened

[Dariush]

Oh... oh god. So many... walls of text. I'm lucky I was executed so I don't have to respond to them 
[/bah]
P.S.: Why do people keep using 'lynch' in Kingmaker? It is only lynch if several people are doing it. Otherwise, it's an execution.

[webadict]

Oh... oh god. So many... walls of text. I'm lucky I was executed so I don't have to respond to them 
[/bah]
P.S.: Why do people keep using 'lynch' in Kingmaker? It is only lynch if several people are doing it. Otherwise, it's an execution.

This is nothing compared to dakarian vs. Vector vs. webadict. We had several walls colliding into mountains of rubble. No one was safe. dakarian was crushed to death by one.

And I use lynch simply because I've grown accustomed to the term. Sure, it should be execution, but I'm not going to change now.

[Mindmaker]

I'm at work, so I can't answer properly to all the posts.
However a bunch of things, about what webadict and Jim said strike me as odd.
So does NFs lack of activity (just because I said you looked towny, doesn't mean I'll shy away from executing you, if needed).

I'm not sure about the rule change.

Expect more info, in around 3 hours.

[webadict]

Just don't lynch until the rule is fixed. Lynching Jim automatically loses right now.

[webadict]

In fact, how can you even see a downside to changing the rule? Jim Groovester disagrees only so that you'll lynch him and let Native take the throne uncontested. It wouldn't even matter who he kills! Changing the rule is the only way to win, unless you plan on lynching Native. Honestly, how you think he's not scum is beyond me. Look at how little he cares about today. Or yesterday. He can't even be bothered to post!

I want them both lynched because they are BOTH SCUM! Jim Groovester has shown he is scum with his last post, so assume this is tomorrow.

My job is to show you today that I'm the last town out of those two. You're giving me no opportunity to show you Native is scum, because you refuse to listen. Well guess what! If you don't listen and figure out that he's scum today, they win. How can I prove to you anymore than I have! I've done nothing but bring up point after point after point!

Jim Groovester is obviously scum. There is no question. No Town would ever do that, since it would be an instant loss. So, why would Jim want Native Kinged?!? Because they are a team!!!

It is beyond obvious at this point, so if you do not listen, there's nothing more I can do to show they are a team and that they have been trying to abuse the King rule from Day 2, when they BOTH MENTION IT! Look back, they do.

Even without that, Native has done nothing since Day 1, other than steal arguments, bandwagon, lurk, flipflop, make passive statements, and wants the Kingship uncontested.

[Mindmaker]

I don't know what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

I think you're suggesting that I was fine with webadict having crappy suspicions but now I'm suddenly not.

Don't play dumb, I'm not buying that.
It's the other way round, obviously.

Kingmakers claiming is an incredibly potent strategy, which is why it's banned in some variants of this game. If it's not banned it will and should be done, because getting confirmed townies is always a good thing to have. The scum have no choice but to let the claim happen, because if they contest it the game narrows focus down to two players, one of whom is scum, which is a dangerous thing to have happen if it can be avoided.

This tactic only makes sense, if you have a doctor.
You won't be able to do much with your immunity, if it only lasts one day, considering you have to claim at an early stage of the game, when there isn't much information to work with.
And claiming at a later stage of the game can prove fatal, considering mafia could simply counterclaim.

I still don't see how both of you can promote this as a glorious move, considering we lack the doctor to make it work.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to deal with Mindmaker probably believing NativeForeigner is more likely Town, despite NativeForeigner not really giving a crap Day 2 onward. Oh disappointing.

Thank you for belittling me, makes my work so much easier.
It's interesting, what you can pull of your ass, if faced with the dreadful perspective, of me not buying your theories.
More of that later on.

Reason #1 that NativeForeigner should be lynched:

... which just made me want to execute you more.

If NativeForeigner were Town, he would KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THIS WOULD BE THE SCUMTEAM. IT WOULD BE THE ONLY OPTION! Unfortunately, he really can't give the necessary acting it takes to believe such a thing, as he really only has one goal in mind: Lynch the webadict!

Not only do we get the "possibility" line, which shows how certain he is that I'm scum (He knows Jim's scum), but he even has the guts to pull out a "randomly decided" nonsense. That's right: He's using the worst statistical evidence he can muster! Let's not forget the amount of logical reasoning he provides: It's random!

This is the most passive line I have ever seen, in the most crucial time when he should be trying to lynch the scum.

What acting? Do you believe you get bonus points for every time you claim being town?
Saying things like this is utterly pointless, given that everyone says the same.
I use that "neutral approach" myself and lynching anyone for this would be bloody stupid.

If this was more, than just a desperate attempt to save your skin, than I have to say you're not nearly as good as I thought you were.

various posts accusing NF of being jumpy

Most of them weren't even strong accusations, just things that struck him as odd, leading to inquiries of his.

Well you ever heard of the term "sportmanship", webadict?
A valid reason to object in my opinion.

To both of you:
I'd be happy, if you didn't dodge my questions, by overshadowing them with your personal argument.

So even if the rules weren't changed and I'd execute NF, all of us would be available for kingship, right?
Because I'm going to execute NF, shouldn't he show up soon, defending himself against webadict and sharing his thoughts on Jim.
I'm not going to tolerate lurkers, no matter if this might make me lose. I'd still have the satisfaction of having figured out the scumteam.

And Jim, why don't you have anything on NF, as webadict has already pointed out?

[NativeForeigner]

Sorry, I've been somewhat busy. Allow me a few minutes to catch up.

[Mindmaker]

You have all night.
I'm going to sleep now.

[Jim Groovester]

The point is I only lynch on evidence and suspect on gut feeling. Suspecting someone means about at little as how you care to make yourself look Townie. But, that's obviously not even your plan. Wanna know how I know? You basically gave away you and NativeForeigner as being the scumteam, and it's INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS.

In fact, if you skip to the very last part of this dissection, I'll show you. Dear God, are you low. You're also an idiot.

I only make Walls of Text for people I believe are scum, because they're the ones with evidence against them. Just because I feel like you're scum, does not: 1) make that person scum, or 2) means there's sufficient evidence to lynch them. Zrk2 was scummy, and he was validly justified. Day 1, I wasn't convinced enough about any of Jokerman, Dariush, or Pandarsenic to lynch. That's why I was sitting there looking at the names. They were scummy, but not nearly enough to constitute a lynch.

This sounds like a lot of bullshit to justify scummy play on your part. Probably because it is.

There isn't really any discrepancy between evidence and suspicions, because the former leads naturally into the latter. If you can't point to any particular post or string of posts where you can say, "I suspect this person for these reasons," then you're just doling out token suspicions for their own sake and justifying it by calling it a gut feeling.

Hell, you can just say "I suspect this person for these reasons, but I do not suspect them all that strongly for it." See? That was easy. You did absolutely none of that.

More whining about Dariush.

Okay, I get it, you don't like that I indicated I was planning on lynching Dariush on Monday days in advance and that I did exactly that.

And apparently you have a problem with the reasons I lynched Dariush on. Oh, wait, no you don't, you only have a problem with the number of reasons that I lynched Dariush on.

I don't know. You've got a pretty weird definition of scumhunting, where you don't have to have any reasons to suspect somebody, but to lynch them you need an exhaustive list. What a confusing inconsistency. It's almost like it's personally customized to fit you and whatever crap you try and pull in a game.

I would normally expect that you need good reasons to both suspect people and lynch them, and that the number of reasons shouldn't matter, only whether the reasons are actually any good.

Complaints about my objection to the rule change.

Objecting to it on principle is not a game-relevant opinion. If it screws me over, so be it.

I'm not going to justify it any further, because I shouldn't have to.

I don't know what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

I think you're suggesting that I was fine with webadict having crappy suspicions but now I'm suddenly not.

Don't play dumb, I'm not buying that.
It's the other way round, obviously.

Why the attitude? I asked because I couldn't tell what you were saying. And I'm going to ask again, because if what I said wasn't what you were getting at, then I don't really know what you were.

So what were you asking there? I was, and still am, honestly confused by what you mean.

Kingmakers claiming is an incredibly potent strategy, which is why it's banned in some variants of this game. If it's not banned it will and should be done, because getting confirmed townies is always a good thing to have. The scum have no choice but to let the claim happen, because if they contest it the game narrows focus down to two players, one of whom is scum, which is a dangerous thing to have happen if it can be avoided.

This tactic only makes sense, if you have a doctor.
You won't be able to do much with your immunity, if it only lasts one day, considering you have to claim at an early stage of the game, when there isn't much information to work with.
And claiming at a later stage of the game can prove fatal, considering mafia could simply counterclaim.

I still don't see how both of you can promote this as a glorious move, considering we lack the doctor to make it work.

Then the Kingmaker claims again, ad nauseum, until the game is over or the scum contest it.

It's banned in some variants because, pow, instant confirmed townie, or an either or scum lynch. Both benefit the town immensely.

Well you ever heard of the term "sportmanship", webadict?
A valid reason to object in my opinion.

Yes! Exactly.

To both of you:
I'd be happy, if you didn't dodge my questions, by overshadowing them with your personal argument.

How have I been dodging questions? Every question you asked I answered. If you're talking about the question where I asked what you meant, I truly didn't know what you meant so I gave you the best one I could offer. If that wasn't it you'll have to clarify.

And it's hardly a personal argument if the game's on the line, which it completely is.

So even if the rules weren't changed and I'd execute NF, all of us would be available for kingship, right?
Because I'm going to execute NF, shouldn't he show up soon, defending himself against webadict and sharing his thoughts on Jim.
I'm not going to tolerate lurkers, no matter if this might make me lose. I'd still have the satisfaction of having figured out the scumteam.

And Jim, why don't you have anything on NF, as webadict has already pointed out?

Well, let's see. His Day 1 was decent, where he was active and engaged, but after that he turned quiet, and simply borrowed everybody else's suspicions and kept in the game only by doing mild prods that he didn't really bother following through with. He wasn't just latching onto webadict's suspicions, he was latching onto mine as well.

His dead silence today is pretty much confirmation that he's scum.

All that you said about NativeForeigner is true, and indeed, the only way for the town to win is for NativeForeigner to be lynched. So you don't even really need to listen to his responses, and I don't think he'll show up to give them.

PPE: Well, color me surprised.