Execute zrk2.
I know I'm going to hate myself for that, but I'm afraid it's necessary. Mostly because I... believe... Jim... is... right. I felt like he was scum before, but I dropped it with a wave of my hand on him being newbie. I went back through some of his other games, and I wasn't fully convinced, but then there were some posts I was wary of. Then... well... I have to do this.
And, due to some of you obnoxious people that request evidence, here it will be:
Mindmaker, Zrk2, NativeForeigner: I've never played a game with any of you. In the absence of the RVS how do you think we should go about getting a conversation going in the early stages of the game?
Being attentive and unforgiving about everything that is posted.
Not leaving anyone off the hook with a weak "I'll be watching you", but being persistent and asking additional questions until everything is clear.
Good enough?
I second the motion. People need to be investigated thoroughly. I am new to mafia and have been in two previous games. (I was lynched in both despite being a townie.)
But what if a scum claimed to be kingmaker? This would cause much shenanigans, unless someone was willing to take the risk of appointing one to be king. I think this could be a valid scum strategy.
His first post is actually an odd one. Unlike his first posts from Christmas Mafia, he doesn't pick a target to go after, and finds zero scumtells in any. This isn't his first game, by the way. He knew what was expected of him.
However, more than just meta-tells, he's not analyzing his fellow players, but trying to gather information. He's trying to gain more information about the setup than about scum. This is bad.
I brought it up in the hope that the town would think about it, and therefore allow the more experienced players another viewpoint from which to scumhunt. Besides, even the best laid plans fail the second the forces meet in battle. Were I suspected of being scum while being king I would consider lynching my partner in order to put myself above reproach. The possibilities are endless.
The whole point is that he's not participating in any sort of RVS. I'd also like to point out the potential scumslip (which I can't count as evidence, but if he's scum, then it's hilarious), but I'll let you make the connections.
I would watch for clues about who your partner is based on your actions.
I think we should get a conversation going by asking many questions and making sure to follow them up.
And do you want my to theorize about a scum claiming to be kingmaker?
Anyone want to make a guess when he starts asking players questions?
I have been busy hypothesizing. I will review the thread and then post some questions later tonight.
Stalling is never good, but the fact is:
You should reach a conclusion that satisfies you, and if they are not persuasive enough to change your mind, then lynch whoever you think did it.
Thirty minutes later...
I am simply being active, input is never a bad idea.
Two hours later... (Please notice the text, too)
Here are some notes I made rereading the thread
Native Foreigner:
-Over eager to please
-Willing to kill off townies on suspicions
-Answers questions not directed to him
Jim Groovester:
-Sucking up or RPing
-Trying to get Pandarsenic to be king
-They could be the scum
-Very insightful
-Wants to lynch townies for seeming useless
-Very quick to question
-Good king, so long as he isn't scum
Pandarsenic:
-Hanging back early
-Careful or scum for not trying to get conversation too indepth too early
Jokerman-EXE:
-Try to befriend
-Seems to be getting favoured status by acting jovial
-Scummy
Mindmaker:
-Thinks we should be able to remember everything
-Seems like a standard opening
-Avoiding questions
Dariush:
-Seems to be saying the obvious
Ottofar:
-Wants kingmaker to claim
-Admits would alert scum
-Doesn't matter because they already know who the non-scum are. Kingmaker doesn't really change anything
Mindmaker:
-Standard opening
Webadict:
-Quick to think I think he is scum
-Questionable
If I were to choose anyone to be scum at this point I would say Jim Groovester is scum because of his overzealous scumhunt and his determination to remain permanently on the offensive, likely so no one will question him.
Jim Groovester why are you questioning me so thouroughly while ignoring the others? Do you think I am scum, or are you hiding something? If you were scum what would you do?
And then it's this post. Jim Groovester kinda got the backlash here for questioning zrk2 and Mindmaker (who is both surprisingly clean in zrk2's report AND has some bad stuff [LISTED TWICE!]).
Please also note the amount of time before he could he pick up an actual target. If he were trying to stay active, as he called it, he would have gone for something more along the lines of "dakarian is scummy because he's [adjective/verb/noun]" in the first few posts. It didn't get him lynched right away in other games, either, so he can't blame his death on that.
Also, we can tell how careful he was when making the list. Just, read it and find out yourself.
I figured that the GM would choose more experience players to be scum, because they would be able to do it better. And I do not think you are scum yet, I just put down feelings and thoughts I had based on your posts.
I think I questioned everyone's integrity.
I am not going to jump on someone yet, I am observing. If anything seems strange I will start following that person more closely.
If I were to choose anyone to be scum at this point I would say Jim Groovester is scum because of his overzealous scumhunt and his determination to remain permanently on the offensive, likely so no one will question him.
This is called being town.
Jim Groovester why are you questioning me so thouroughly while ignoring the others? Do you think I am scum, or are you hiding something? If you were scum what would you do?
Because there's stuff to pick at you about and you're more responsive and available than the other people I'm trying to get answers out of.
Do I think you're scum? I'm starting to think that you are. You've given lots of odd answers and done lots of odd things and things that are odd make me suspicious. But you're also new, so I'm keeping that in the back of my mind. But then you go and do something like this, and then I stop caring that you're new.
If I were scum, I probably would have come down on you earlier in the day instead of asking you a bunch of questions to get a decent read on you.
If you were town you would question everyone equally, but it is possible that you just think I am more scummy than anyone else, which is wrong.
This is both a conflicting statement, untrue, and avoids use of the word scum. He's conflicting because he just questioned Jim Groovester, but no one else. He then says he's not questioning Jim Groovester (he hasn't gone after anyone yet). The statement's completely untrue in that you will have to question people unequally no matter what anyhow.
Also, the GM doesn't choose who's scum. RNG's do. For future reference.
I don't really know what to add. If you have questions for me, I'll hear them. I'll join the general conversation starting (real-world) tomorrow, when I have a better idea of how school and everything will pan out this quarter.
Jokerman-EXE:
-Try to befriend
-Seems to be getting favoured status by acting jovial
-Scummy
- You'll have to explain that to me. It almost sounds like you think I'm befriending WUBA by telling him that I would kill him, given the chance and the reason.
- Favored status from whom? And why do you think I'm being jovial?
- Give me a reason.
I'm borrowing Jokerman's post here because zrk's reasoning here...
Why yes! I've stated that I would do that, thank you for bringing it up!
Jokerman seems too nice.
...is exactly the same here, when he DOES push Jokerman. That is a vote, in case you can't read it.
Not only that, but Jokerman was scum and Zrk was town in that game. Subtle differences? Yes.
Jim Groovester: What have I done that is strange?
Webadict: I was pointing out things I thought that might be strange. Why do you think I am scummy?
Jokerman-EXE: You just sounded like you were sucking up at the beginning, you sounded too nice.
Nativeforeigner: I would consider lynching him to make me look like a sure-fire townie. I know I blew chunks in BM, I just figured 'You learn by doing.' and just did whatever in an attempt to learn. Thank you. However, your attempts to help me do seem to make us appear a little scummy.
Pandarsenic: You were more insulted then warrented by having it suggested you may be scum. It seems like an over-reaction. Justify it.
Mindmaker: I meant generc, I don't think openings can create any scumtells because even scum open the same way. Also, changing plans is not a scum tell, it is adapting to the new climate.
Ottofar: You are unequivocally claiming to be knigmaker?
I felt you were being scummy through analyzing the system rather than questioning the players. There's big differences between the two, and thinking like scum might be nice, but you... er... didn't go after anyone, nor did the question seem at all warranted.
He is saying 'Fine lynch me, but you'll regret it!' When I tried that it was seen as a scumtell, so if you think it is sufficient lynch him. If not, wait for more questions.
Dariush you seem to be giving up. A townie would yell and scream about being innocent, but you seem to be taking it. Provide a detailed reason why you should not be lynched. Do not be afraid to go on ad nauseum.
This is bad in a number of ways. The first is the passive attitude: "Lynch him unless you don't want to." Second, since when did you start thinking Dariush was scum? It certainly wasn't a few posts ago. You're also okay with Dariush being lynched without having reason to.
He finds my hypothesizing weird. I find his only questioning me weird. It isn't achieving anything.
We should pick one person and then question them, then move on to the next, then the next until we have covered everyone. This would provide a more detailed view of each person for this game. I would be willing to take the first round of questions.
Oh my fuck this post reeks scum in every way. EVERYTHING ABOUT IT screams "Don't look at me! I'm hideous!"
How? Why would any scum volunteer to be questioned? That is illogical. You are now one of my scumpicks.
Everyone:
1) What would be your reaction if Ottofar isn't killed during the night? Would that change your view of his scumminess?
2) Same question if someone else claims to have protected him.
3) What can you make out of Ottofar's laconism and straightforwardness about his Kingmakerness? Did his immediate giving up raised or lowered your suspicion of him?
Now, general ones:
4) What will happen if someone you previously thought as scum becomes king? Your reaction to (supposed) Kingmaker?
5) How would you determine if current king is scum?
6) What will you do if the current king suits your suspicions?
7) Same question if you are elected king next day. Will you execute him without asking any further questions, thus risking the execution the following day?
What will be your reaction if the king executes someone without any questions?
9) If you become Kingmaker, will you choose someone you chose from the start or will you act upon current circumstances? If latter, on which?
As for me, I think Ottofar's immediate claim is more a scummy move than not so that it can be used later if he is accused.
1. I don't see what would be gained from killing the kingmaker. I don't think he will be killed.
2. I still don't see why he would be killed in the first place. What is the big deal about the kingmaker being killed? ANother will just be chosen to replace him.
3. What? By claiming kingmaker unopposed he ensures that he is seen as a townie. Were scum to claim the only option would be to lynch the more scummy first, and hope he was the scum, if not, then lynch the other.
4. If I thought he was scum but it was not widely believed I would not be very upset, I would push for the lynching of the other person who I thought was scummy.
5. By looking for anyone his questions seem to spare, or if he lynches someone who does not seem very scummy.
6. I would try to get him to lynch the most scummy townie I see.
7. I would never execute without asking questions, because it would make me look like a massive scum.
8. I would try to get him lynched the next day because it seems very scummy to me.
9. I will act upon whoever seems the most scummy after a round of questioning everyone.
Dariush and Pandarsenic both seem very scummy.
Dariush: Answer the fucking questions and try to defend yourself.
Pandarsenic: You need to compartmentalize your anger about BYOR 5.5 and try not to look like a raging scum here. Why shouldn't we lynch you?
Pandarsenic's right: This is an OMGUS. Almost every person you suspect is an OMGUS, accept for Dariush, who you latched onto as soon as I did. You OMGUS'd Jim. You OMGUS'd Pandar. We'll see how far you stick to your guns before abandoning ship.
Yeah.
Mindmaker, tell us a bit about your Mafia playing style, both scum and townie.
Er... Aren't you going to question one of Jim, Pandarsenic, or Dariush?
Jim Groovester Since you are so upset about these 'pointless' questions, come up with some you think would be useful instead of whining.
Nope. I guess not. Not very convinced they're scum, are you?
Re Everyone: Thanks for the input derived from my bitchy post. Jim seems less scummy every time he talks.
Mindmaker He is presenting a case based on discontinunities and a general (apparently to him) lack of townieness. What do you do?
Pandarseinc Who, other than me seems somewhat scummy to you?
Jim Groovester Thanks for the answer, now, if you were a scum, how would you hide it?
Dariush has disappeared again. Jim has been dropped to "not-scum" status. Pandarsenic is somewhere between here and...?
Well, in answer to the fact that I apparently look scummy; I am still new to Mafia, I have played before, but I am still learning the nuances of the game, and so amy make mistakes that seem scummy, but are just inexperience. I think Dariush is very scummy, as he is lurking horribly. I may be inexperienced, but at least I am not lurking.
Dariush is scummy because he is lurking. While I could have accepted this as a case about 10 pages ago, it no longer applies.
Words fail me.
That's a first. I was not begging for sympathy when I mentioned being new, I was stating facts. Remembering that I am new could serve to explain my supposed 'tells.' If you don't like that reason there is nothing I can do about it.
And perhaps webadict could answer a few questions, as he could be scum. If you were a scumking what would you do?
I was kind of hoping you were just new and that I was making a mistake by suspecting you to begin with. I was planning on lynching Pandarsenic... but then I thought I'd give both him and Jim some slack. I mean, I royally despise Jim, but I couldn't make a decision like this without a look over. So, I looked at your past games and your playing style this game and your words. And it just never added up to coherency.
And never use the word "could" in a sentence explaining away your scumtells. That's just stupid.
And in case it matters now, if I were a scumking, I would've lynched Jim Groovester (assuming he weren't my partner). The key would be trying to figure out how to do it. Probably building a case about going after newbies, and then he'd OMGUS or some such things. It's easily spiral down to us shouting at each other and me angerlynching him, then BSing my way out of the noose. It's a lot easier than you think. As for why, it's because he always goes after me.
WUBA IS AS WUBA DOES
You're actually a pretty awful choice for King.
Now, I'd be able to lynch faster if Dariush was more available.
Dariush isn't the problem, it's you. If you're going to ignore the town and be completely arcane in your suspicions and any issue you want to see addressed, the game is going to grind to a complete halt as everybody just waits for you to make up your fucking mind. Why bother trying to get anybody lynched if every case is going to fall on deaf ears? Why bother responding if there's nothing that's apparent to respond to?
Obviously I'm just wasting my time explaining this to you.
Great use of the word arcane.
Webadict could you present any arguments you have for anyone you are considering lynching?
You. Look above. Next time stay focused.
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Topic: Kingmaker Mafia- Season 3! Game over! (Read 39089 times)