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[webadict]

Well, I hate to change the rules midgame, but I can remove the limit if the game goes to night tonight and no one objects.

Umm... I'd like to point out a few things that would make you change your mind:

First, Theoretical:

If one of either Jim Groovester or me are Town, and this can only be one, since both would require that Mindmaker be scum, then if one of those two Townies are killed the next Night (assuming scum [That wasn't NativeForeigner] was lynched), the other CANNOT BE RE-KINGED. That means the choices for King would be NativeForeigner. Who by default would be scum assuming the criteria.

Now, this is only assuming that only one of Jim Groovester and me were Town, which is 66% probable at this point (4/[4!/{2!*2!}]).

Second, since I know myself to be Town, I have to believe that Jim Groovester is not Town in order for there to be a sliver of chance of winning. Luckily, since none of the others seem to have stated outright that their team has won, Mindmaker can also be assumed to be Town. That makes the above theoretical not only probable, but almost the exact situation we have here.

The only difference is that if Mindmaker does lynch NativeForeigner, then Ottofar can choose a new King. However, I'd rather there was not a forced lynch (Despite them both having to be scum), as that is, well, forced.

Third, if Jim Groovester and I had both been Town, the available choices would have been Mindmaker and NativeForeigner, the only two candidates for King and scum. That's a 16% chance that shouldn't happen, as the scum would kill someone that wasn't King.

And finally, the last possibility (Jim Groovester and I are scum) has only a 16% chance of happening as well, but it'd also be unfair, as then the scum would have no way to be Kinged unless they killed Ottofar. But, they shouldn't have to do that.

So, in conclusion, CHANGE THE RULE. No matter who's Town or who's scum, it is unfair to the players who were previously Kinged. There is nothing gained from re-Kinging, just as there's everything gained from having a Hero not die.

If Mindmaker's scum, we've probably lost. If not, that means the scumteam is Jim and Wuba. Seeing as this has all come down to process of elimination, we're just going to have to wait until Mindmaker shows up to know. :/

If he's scum, just say it. Don't beat around the bush. If anyone's his partner, it's you, and if he's scum, you've won. Therefore, there's no penalty for saying you've won before he gets here. Because he's the only one that can lynch. Get it?

And if he's not your partner, that's an incredibly passive way of talking, as it DOESN'T come down to process of elimination. I've been saying you were suspicious since Day 2. Of course, I suspected it was Pandarsenic and you, but I can really only thank you for killing Pandarsenic, can't I? I can't honestly agree with killing the scummiest Town player alive (Other than, perhaps Ottofar), as I was serious when I said I would instantly lynch him. He simply sucks, and refuses to do anything more than a ToonyMan-style active-lurking passive-aggressive banter about me, who only gets it for saying he was scummy - in exactly as many words.

If you had kept Pandarsenic alive, instead of Mindmaker, you would probably have been Kinged. The only possibility I can see with killing him is maybe making me look bad. But, really, I digress. It's almost always better to leave the scummy people. And after the game ends, I'll explain more, since all I can really do when talking about that is bring up WIFOM.

Assuming Mindmaker isn't scum, which is all I really have to hope for, Jim Groovester and NativeForeigner are the scum. Unfortunately, I'm gonna go with the more likely Town has lost variant.

By the same conditions and process of elimination, the scum team is you and NativeForeigner.

But yeah, you're right. If Mindmaker's scum then the game is lost. There's nothing to do until he shows up, then.

Not really. Yes, process of elimination is great and all, but there's simply more to it than that. There is, in fact, plenty to do before he gets here. At least one of us is Town, and if exactly one of us are Town, that means the King is, in fact, town.

So, on the off-chance I haven't lost instantly, you two are scum. I can build arguments for that before he gets here. What can you two say for yourselves? The only person I could maybe give credit to is Jim Groovester, who has a small possibility to being Town, and therefore is game over.

If the Town has lost, then Toaster should simply end the game. Because I'm sick of waiting. I also want those rules changed for next game.

[Mindmaker]

I'll be home in about 2 hours.
After that I'll be reviewing the thread, since there have been some question during the course of the game, which people hadn't answered me, I believe.
Maybe they have been answered by the progress of the game, but if not expect me to as them again, now that I'm in the position to actually get answers.

[Ottofar]

Woo! I didn't screw up!

[Mindmaker]

Well let's see:
Jim has been been suspicoious about webadict for a very long time and even though it doesn't look like he's getting satisfying answer he desists from questioning him further?
Why? I mean there's a number of reasons I can think of, but I'd like to hear it from your mouth.

Also webadict, you still haven't properly explained why you had Jokerman on you list of suspects. Anything you'd like to add to that gut-feeling of yours?

All in all, the rivalry between webadict and Jim, get's less and less convincing as the game goes on. Just saying.

As for NF:
I'll have to review the post involving him. Expect me to post again in a few hours.

[webadict]

Well, at least you're Town. That means we haven't lost. Amazing to say the least.

So, Mindmaker, I'm going to assume you believe I'm scum. Unfortunately, I'm in class for a few hours, but when I get back, I am going to make sure you lynch one of the others.

[Ottofar]

Well, at least you're Town. That means we haven't lost. Amazing to say the least.

Why thank you.

[webadict]

Dude, you know it was totally random too! You even said woo!

I am glad that you made finding scum incredibly easy though, so you do get a "Good job."

[Mindmaker]

Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Jim, Webadict, what does strike you as odd about NF?
Also NF, your thoughts regarding a Jim&Webadict scumteam?

Oh and another question to webadict:
Why would you ask Kingmaker to claim? The way I see it, this benefits scum more than town.
If he'd turn out to bee a good player, that would make a great target for a NK. I mean being confirmed town, gives you so much more freedom in scumhunting and even more exotic theories wouldn't get you lynched.
However, if he turned out to be a bad/inactive player, you could simply leave him be and watch how this great position is totally going to waste.

[Ottofar]

Confirmed townie at LyLo=good.

[webadict]

I can answer that for now.

So, why should the Kingmaker claim?

First, the Kingmaker is a confirmed Town. This is essentially the biggest reason. It eliminates one whole person from lynchings, increasing the chance to lynch scum.

Second, besides eliminating him from lynches, the kingmaker USUALLY is a confirmed voice of reason. It allows for him to give any amount of information to the King at no cost. Generally, having a confirmed Town is always good.

Third, it eliminates having the Kingmaker claim some other time with potential WIFOM. Would you believe if Ottofar claimed Kingmaker now? I probably wouldn't, but who knows. It's no longer a possibility.

Fourth and last, and this reason is more of justification after the fact, Ottofar was going to be left alive no matter what. He's not a strong player, and he's certainly not going to be a real threat to the scum.

So, I will always say it's justified. And it should be, unless you find a very good reason for not doing it.

[Ottofar]

I'm good at finding town. At least somewhat.
The things I fail at, are attacking, and providing reasons.

[Jim Groovester]

Not really. Yes, process of elimination is great and all, but there's simply more to it than that. There is, in fact, plenty to do before he gets here. At least one of us is Town, and if exactly one of us are Town, that means the King is, in fact, town.

This is a moot point since Mindmaker's here now, but did you really want to have a giant pissing match before we knew whether or not it really matters?

Well let's see:
Jim has been been suspicoious about webadict for a very long time and even though it doesn't look like he's getting satisfying answer he desists from questioning him further?
Why? I mean there's a number of reasons I can think of, but I'd like to hear it from your mouth.

Because the answers were satisfying, to some extent, or I knew I wasn't going to get anything more out of webadict. Gut feelings are fine enough reasons to suspect people, or at least to start with, but they leave little room for further discussion. That's what most of webadict's suspicions this game have been: gut feelings.

Jokerman-EXE: Gut feeling
Pandarsenic: Gut feeling (on Day 1)
Jim Groovester: Gut feeling
NativeForeigner: Gut feeling

There was nothing to question about what he was doing with Pandarsenic on Day 2, and after I got the gut feeling answers for all his other suspicions, there was no point in asking further.

Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Jim, Webadict, what does strike you as odd about NF?

He's been very quiet and has actually done very little scumhunting. Day 2 especially, he tried to hide and do nothing.

[NativeForeigner]

Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Jim, Webadict, what does strike you as odd about NF?
Also NF, your thoughts regarding a Jim&Webadict scumteam?

I think a Jim&Webadict scumteam would be scary, seeing as they're both very experienced players, but entirely possible since the roles are decided randomly. I don't have much tells on Jim, but seeing as you haven't insta-lynched, that just leaves Jim and Wuba. I would also like to point out that all of Wuba's "gut-feelings" have turned out town. Four of them. No one he suspected was scum because he is scum and he apparently didn't choose  to throw his partner into his list of suspects. Probably because he would be questioned for not going after them.

urther.

Regarding NF:
Seems suprisingly towny to me. But well, I don't have to do all the work.
Jim, Webadict, what does strike you as odd about NF?

He's been very quiet and has actually done very little scumhunting. Day 2 especially, he tried to hide and do nothing.

I was more active D1 than D2, yes, but I was somewhat busy during D2. I still made my posts, I confronted Dariush about his actions, questioned Jim about his choice before he made it, and tried to get anything out of Pandar, but I ultimately wasn't very active D2, unfortunately. But I certainly didn't try to hide and do nothing.

[Mindmaker]

So, I will always say it's justified. And it should be, unless you find a very good reason for not doing it.

All it does is giving you a lynching immunity for a day and if you're of any worth to town, it won't hold any longer than that (because of scum).
If you were kingmkaer, would you claim on day 1? And do you believe you would survive the night, if you did?

Also, don't forget your other question.

About your views on Dariush:
Did you just threaten to lynch him because you actually thought he was a bad townie and needed some "motivation"? If not, what made to change your mind on D2?
I reall hope the answer isn't "gut feeling" again...

Because the answers were satisfying, to some extent, or I knew I wasn't going to get anything more out of webadict. Gut feelings are fine enough reasons to suspect people, or at least to start with, but they leave little room for further discussion. That's what most of webadict's suspicions this game have been: gut feelings.

Jokerman-EXE: Gut feeling
Pandarsenic: Gut feeling (on Day 1)
Jim Groovester: Gut feeling
NativeForeigner: Gut feeling

There was nothing to question about what he was doing with Pandarsenic on Day 2, and after I got the gut feeling answers for all his other suspicions, there was no point in asking further.

I'd agree if it had been one or two, but that's just a tad to many.

Oh and penny for you thoughts on this theory:
Well it's known that both you and Webadict are both experienced players. So the gut feeling of such a player, has some weigth.
So it was you, who's been questioning the scumpicks of webadict, until shortly after they turned out to be wrong.
By withdrawing your suspicions, after they flipped town, you admitted that there was nothing wrong with them and the other players decided to trust your superior judgement.
Next day you did the old switch-a-roo, which then worked equally well.

Webadict, feel free to comment on this as well.

He's been very quiet and has actually done very little scumhunting. Day 2 especially, he tried to hide and do nothing.

Well, I agree at least withe the 2nd part of your statement.
He had a good supporting role though.

Additionally, your viewpoint on kingmaker claiming would be interesting.

[Jim Groovester]

Oh and penny for you thoughts on this theory:
Well it's known that both you and Webadict are both experienced players. So the gut feeling of such a player, has some weigth.
So it was you, who's been questioning the scumpicks of webadict, until shortly after they turned out to be wrong.
By withdrawing your suspicions, after they flipped town, you admitted that there was nothing wrong with them and the other players decided to trust your superior judgement.
Next day you did the old switch-a-roo, which then worked equally well.

Webadict, feel free to comment on this as well.

I don't know what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

I think you're suggesting that I was fine with webadict having crappy suspicions but now I'm suddenly not. Him having gut feelings for crappy suspicions wasn't worth lynching him over when he had one very strong one (Pandarsenic) and was working at it in a reasonable fashion, and Dariush was acting scummier.

Now, obviously, things have changed. Even if he wasn't one of only two choices for being scum, I would still think he was the likeliest candidate. Dropping gut feelings around everywhere isn't sufficient, and then he had a change of heart about Dariush after I decided to execute him, which surprises me because webadict was very nearly ready to lynch him on Day 1, before he decided to have a change of heart about that too.

Additionally, your viewpoint on kingmaker claiming would be interesting.

Kingmakers claiming is an incredibly potent strategy, which is why it's banned in some variants of this game. If it's not banned it will and should be done, because getting confirmed townies is always a good thing to have. The scum have no choice but to let the claim happen, because if they contest it the game narrows focus down to two players, one of whom is scum, which is a dangerous thing to have happen if it can be avoided.