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[vikingefar]

Hello fellow dorfers! I have been thinking lately (i know i know, i probably should not), since being introduced to Aurora after having dorfed around for a year or so, these games; DF and Aurora seems to me to be a genuinely new genre of games. Now i know that DF and Aurora doesnt have that much in common, but lets nail what they DO have in common:

1: Procedurally generated

2: Immensely complex for the sake of randomly emerging plot's

To me these game mechanic attributes pinhole these games together in a box that insofar HAS NO NAME! This is BAD!! Things need NAMES! How else can we make them do our bidding?

Therefore i have created this post, let us discuss a possible naming convention for this new genre of totally of the wall awesome computer programs! Who knows? Maybe we will be immortalised by gaming journalists everywhere, much like that guy who came up with the 4x tag.

I propose this name:

PEST games, or simply PEST's. Its an acronym: Procedurally generated Emergent Story Telling games.

 I like how the work pest in my mothers tongue means plague, thats how these games work, they plague you with their existence, constantly begging you to do a run through just to see what kinds of awesome will happen! Allso plagues are Dwarfy!

BUT, lets hear YOUR ideas! Discuss, throw a tantrum, whatever!

apologies for poor english, and possible repost, i did a search i swear it! On the beard of Ber Steelearthen!

[darius]

I think Toady One said something about DF being "Fantasy world simulator" once. So maybe this could be a name. Also PEST is well... kinda pesty... Maybe PEG (procedural emergent game) although English is not my native language

[nbonaparte]

I say we name a genre once a game that shares the genre with DF comes about. Until then, it's useless.

[vikingefar]

I say we name a genre once a game that shares the genre with DF comes about. Until then, it's useless.

In the OP i mention Aurora. If you dont know it, its a 4x game with the same level of random and complexity of DF. If you like 4x games you should DEFINATELY try it!!

 I think it does a lot of what DF does that is unique do DF, namely being a random story generator, only this time set in space. It was the discovery of this game that led me to think about DF and Aurora as being part of a new genre. So there is another game out their; its not a city builder with tamagotchi elements like DF, its a 4x game, but it does however share the most important aspects of PEST/PEG's.

The PEST/PEG tag could naturally be be applied to any subgenre of games, as long as the game in question has these two mechanics:

1: Is procedurally generated

2: Is deeply complex for the sake of emergent story telling.

These things can come about in any existing game genre, and to boot, i think they will! DF has generated quite a buzz, and i think alot of the game designers being educated now will incorporate alot of the aspects of PEST's or PEG's (if their publisher allows it, yes im looking at you kotick!) into their commercial projects in due time. I saw a DF clone being made for the LIVE/STEAM market the other day on a local game dev forum, granted it was severely dumbed down, but you played as dwarf's, you strike the earth and gather minerals, so its allready happening. Of coarse the LIVE/STEAM app wasnt a PEST/PEG, it was a simple little app from what i gathered, just using it as an example to illuminate how DF is "infecting" (like a plague, right? right?:-) the gaming industry slowly but surely, and how we will eventually need a label for these games, they are, after all, the next natural step in gaming seeing as any PEST-player will tell you that conventionel games seem bleek and uninteresting after playing a PEST/PEG.

Since i know people will ask, heres a link to the DF clone i talked about:
 http://www.spiludvikling.dk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1181

the site is in danish so you will have to translate.

 Allso, i know this game doesnt exist, but Pressure, the favourite /v/ passtime would definately classify as a PEG or PEST. so the CONCEPT is there, i dont see a need for further manifestations before discussing it. I mean, we allready have Aurora and DF and (in part) Pressure... what more do you want?

[lordnincompoop]

DF is first and foremost a roguelike, in my opinion.

Though emergent gaming and procedural generation are certainly emerging features (heh, heh) in gaming, I don't think there are enough common features among them and differentiating characteristics to create a whole new genre.

Even if it were to be considered a new genre, there are only a handful of video games eligible. Hell, maybe even DF isn't eligible, as it does not have procedurally generated storylines and whatnot yet. Emergent gaming is also not a feature that can really be "designed" in, because the very meaning entails things that the programmers have not anticipated. This is also a very difficult thing to measure, and though some games have more potential than others it's not really feature-material.

This leaves us with only one defining characteristic, which is procedural generation. Again, there are only a handful of games boasting this feature, even fewer of which use it as a defining characteristic. Many of these games have far more characteristics appropriate to other genres (say, RPGs and RTSes), and if this new one were to only have one, why not just say that it has procedurally generated content?

[The Merchant Of Menace]

I think fantasy world simulator works. DF also has the whole "Tracks the lives of thousands of individuals" thing going on.

[Tellemurius]

Kotick? i should be doom staring Molyneux...

[vikingefar]

DF is first and foremost a roguelike, in my opinion.

i agree, the term im trying poorly to define is as such an umbrella term or it could cover many different types of genres, such as roguelikes.

Though emergent gaming and procedural generation are certainly emerging features (heh, heh) in gaming, I don't think there are enough common features among them and differentiating characteristics to create a whole new genre.

The common feature here in the term im trying to define, i think rests partly with the PEST game itself; it lends to story telling in an awesome and intuitive way. And partly with the community; who story play intensively and write cool fiction. This i think is the defining common feat in PEST games. I acknowledge i only have 2 substantial evidences, and one fictional, but i think at least there will be many more to come? The enthusiasm in both the Aurora and the DF communities is staggering! This surely will rob off on the creative process that is a part of the industry? I mean, blizzard employees are playing it and such. They must be having debates resembling this one we are having now? I dont know but its certainly a possibility.

Even if it were to be considered a new genre, there are only a handful of video games eligible. Hell, maybe even DF isn't eligible, as it does not have procedurally generated storylines and whatnot yet. Emergent gaming is also not a feature that can really be "designed" in, because the very meaning entails things that the programmers have not anticipated. This is also a very difficult thing to measure, and though some games have more potential than others it's not really feature-material.

I disagree, the generated story lines you speak, do not have to be procedurally scripted for the player to story-play it, it simply needs enough complexity for the player to draw awesome adamantium stories that menace with spikes of plot twist's out from the belly of the procedural beast. but i agree on the genre being way under-represented... sad really. could a name help? if everybody starts buzzwording PEST and writing more boatmurders and DF gets a new interface then we will REVOLUTIONIZE EVERYTHING!!! ok jokes aside, i hope you get my point

This leaves us with only one defining characteristic, which is procedural generation. Again, there are only a handful of games boasting this feature, even fewer of which use it as a defining characteristic. Many of these games have far more characteristics appropriate to other genres (say, RPGs and RTSes), and if this new one were to only have one, why not just say that it has procedurally generated content?

I can relate to what your saying. Allthough i really think the story playing and the fiction writing is essential. This can be done in many games who cannot be defined as PEST's or PEG's or whatever (someone seriously come up with a better one heh) but a very few games as of now and hopefully more in the future indeed shares these traits, and these traits are clearly among their defining attributes. Didnt Steve Walsmsley talk about creating Aurora for the sole purpose of inspiring him in his fiction? And isnt boatmurdered one of the coolest aspects of DF (not boatmurded itself but the story playing) besides DF itself? I personally think these aspects, allthugh a little vague i guess, are genre defining in some small sense currently, hopefully larger scale later on.

I hope i make sense lol

[vikingefar]

I think fantasy world simulator works. DF also has the whole "Tracks the lives of thousands of individuals" thing going on.

It does indeed work, but im trying to define some term that encompasses the story telling aspects that arise from complex procedural systems.

[jellsprout]

DF isn't one game. It is two separate games that come bundled together with a fantasy world generation application.
Fortress Mode would be best described as a CSP: Construction Strategy with Pause. You construct and protect something, like in the Sim or Tycoon games. The main difference is that you don't directly build everything, but you order several minions around to construct everything for you, like in a Strategy game. Fortress Mode is neither Real Time nor Part Part time, because the majority of the game takes place in real time, but all the actions are done by pausing. So combined that bring us a CSP.
Adventure Mode would be a Part Time Action Adventure game. This definition is more straightforward. You go on an adventure, you fight stuff and this is done in turns.
World Generation and Legends don't contain any gameplay, so these aren't games but applications. And the only way to describe them is as a Fantasy World Generator, an application that creates a world and a history with fantasy settings.

[nbonaparte]

The final way that Fortress mode is meant to be controlled is by acting as an official in a fortress. That will eventually combine both modes.

[abculatter_2]

Simulation.
Rougelike.
Also, procedural generation is not in and of itself a game type, only a way to put content in it.

[lordnincompoop]

Abculatter's point is excellent. It's a means to an end, not the end itself.

[The Captain]

FWS FTW

[Buttery_Mess]

Dwarf Fortress is Dungeon Keeper on crack. What genre was dungeon keeper?