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Author Topic: crossbows > war hammers?  (Read 3151 times)

Igfig

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2010, 06:02:33 pm »

I think it's actually a question of contact area.  See, hammers are really good against armour, but not nearly as good (relatively speaking) against bare flesh.  This is because a small contact area with a lot of weight behind it focuses a ton of force onto a single point, which is important if you're dealing with something really hard.  The tradeoff, though, is that you're less likely to hit a vital area.  The bigger your contact area, the more chances you have to hit something interesting.  It's better to hit something unimportant and actually damage it than to hit something vital and have your attack glance away... but if you're strong and skilled enough to do full damage with every hit, large surface areas are best.

If that's true then mauls should be pretty good against unarmed opponents as well. It's still a lot less than a crossbow (100 instead of 10,000) but the huge size might make up for it.

Also, how does velocity comes into this equation?

From what I understand, velocity just multiplies the weapon's effective size.  An axe and a sword might weigh exactly the same, but the axe will hit harder because most of its weight is concentrated in one end.

Size makes a weapon strike with more force; it won't change how likely you are to hit with it.  A maul (size 1300 (x2), area 100) will cover just as much area as the pommel of a shortsword (size 300, area 100), but it'll hit much, much harder. 

The damage equation, as I understand it, looks something like Size * Velocity / Contact Area.  Contact Area and Penetration determine the width and depth of the wound, giving a blow more chances to land squarely.

So yes, a maul's larger surface area should make it more effective than a hammer if armour isn't a factor.  That said, 100 is way less than (e.g.) a battleaxe's 40000 area.  The maul's size will still count for something, but edged weapons have the extra benefit of being able to cause bleeding and sever limbs.  Against unarmoured humanoids, a greataxe or halberd will blow the maul right out of the water.

(Oddly, if we plug the hammer and maul's stats into my equation the hammer actually comes out on top, damage-wise.  The smaller surface area really counts for a lot.  Of course, there's a good chance that my calculations are at least somewhat off: maybe it actually uses the square root of the surface area, or maybe there are some hidden constants somewhere.  I haven't had a chance to do much testing.)

Draco18s

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2010, 11:06:28 pm »

Ran some tests in the arena.  Spawned two grandmaster hammerdwarves.  One with a silver crossbow, the other with a silver warhammer.  Every time one was struck down, I'd spawn a new one with that weapon.  It literally just kept alternating between crossbow and hammer kills, and the winners weren't coming out with any serious injuries.

The loser was probably just getting exhausted.

You'd have to spawn 200 hammerers in 100 tiny cells and see which side comes out on top more, everyone starting fresh.
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Rafal99

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 05:02:52 am »

War hammers in DF are anti-armor weapons. Test them vs dwarves wearing armor.

The damage equation, as I understand it, looks something like Size * Velocity / Contact Area.

Remember that kinetic energy equation is something like E = mv2 / 2.
So damage would be more like Size * Velocity2 / Contact Area.
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Hyndis

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2010, 04:24:29 pm »

I modded my own crossbows with a bayonette on them, so it would do piercing damage instead of bashing.

I just copied the entry for a crossbow bolt, so while in melee it does the same damage as a crossbow bolt. This means it can generally pierce armor but unless it hits a vital organ it won't cause any deaths, but it can inflict bleeding injuries.
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Misterstone

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2010, 04:29:23 pm »

I would hazard to guess that the hammerdwarf in the OP's game was a 9 pound weakling with knocky knees, and the marksdwarf was a big muscular guy.  Send the wus guy back to hauling or milking tasks...
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Sysice

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2010, 04:45:33 pm »

If he weighs nine pounds, that would be some heavy armor.

I might actually try a few tests with armored/not and crossbows/hammers in my arena. I never use blunt weapons, but it is interesting...
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martinuzz

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 08:41:35 pm »

I would hazard to guess that the hammerdwarf in the OP's game was a 9 pound weakling with knocky knees, and the marksdwarf was a big muscular guy.  Send the wus guy back to hauling or milking tasks...

Admitted, the marksdwarf is very strong, very tough and very agile. But still..
5 Hammerdwarves spent forever, not killing but only bruising 5 gobbos.
Then I sent in the marksdwarf. 2 minutes later, all gobbos dead due to inverted brain-skull relations and bleeding out from the crossbow doing a lot of tearing damage.
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Heliman

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2010, 09:47:00 pm »


If you want to take the other rout and make hammers more useful, then I guess the following would help.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Draco18s

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2010, 11:19:52 pm »

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o_O[WTFace]

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2010, 09:25:49 am »

The crossbow has LITERALLY ONE THOUSAND TIMES the impact area of the war hammer (10,000 vs 10).  That means a crossbow is acting a little like an explosive shockwave in a confined area, liquifying the insides of whatever its hitting and causing way more internal bleeding.  My guess is it has way less armor piercing ability then the hammer though. 
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Urist Imiknorris

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2010, 03:15:04 pm »

If you want to take the other route and make hammers more useful, then I guess the following would help.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fixed that there.
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Max White

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Re: crossbows > war hammers?
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2010, 05:14:45 pm »

Why, why does that help? How do whips help the hammer skill? Unless...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There, now hammers are useful again.
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