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Author Topic: Political theory  (Read 16553 times)

Phmcw

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #270 on: December 29, 2010, 09:26:43 am »


If you want morality, here is it. Anyone that really live from one's own job isn't really rich. They are upper/lower middle class, or poor. People that are really rich possess capital, and that's what make them rich. Nobody is good enough to earn
1 000 000 dollars a year by himself (save for singers, actors and sport stars). You get such money by having poeple working for you, it's normal that one share go for the state. As for corporation, they enjoy they workers being educated, they need road, safety, and must pay for it.
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malimbar04

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #271 on: December 29, 2010, 10:33:41 am »

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Well, we don't have servants in this society very often, so I'll substitute poor and middle class workers instead. Fair?
Then my question is...  do these workers also benefit from society the way it is set up? If we completely abolished all rich people by law. Say the laws specifically said "if you earn more than 1,000,000 a year or are worth more than 5,000,000 dollars, you must leave the country and give up all your assets to the state", then how would that affect the poor servants you mention?

I think it's relevant only because of the punishment factor. Consider the hypothetical: building one of the 1/10 of successful businesses could earn a lady a million dollars a year or more if she's very lucky. Then the rich lady would benefit from society greatly, as you said, being able to buy the fanciest things and hire hard workers too, which earn far less money than she does. Because she isn't creative enough to use all the money, she "hoards" it in a bank, only pulling it out when she wants to influence a politician or something (perhaps to build the police force, or a new road, etc). The people that work for her will never be as wealthy as her, that I completely accept. However, it seems to me they benefit greatly as well, far beyond what they are otherwise capable of achieving. They have a steady source of income, all the perks that go along with that (like health care, schooling, and so forth), their own house, roads, stores, and up the line. If the system is set up primarily for the rich, how would they benefit if the rich were less rich?
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Because it is evidence that they're doing exactly what you would expect if they had choices.

That people who wanted to avoid paying taxes would attempt to do so? Those people still want to LIVE in the society, they just don't want to pay for it.
And if they don't, they buy an island and retire, or a yacht, or a "cottage" in some obscure country. If I were a billionaire, I would avoid moving out of country for two big reasons: loyalty and family. I would not stay here because of favorable tax laws.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The tax rate is adjusted specifically to make sure they get the same amount of revenue. The cost of living tax rebate is actually negligible.

Here is how the cost of money roughly breaks down (with made up numbers):
To buy a tube of toothpaste:
- income taxes on all the workers who make the tube
- income taxes on all the workers who make the paste
- income taxes on all the workers who put it together
- business taxes on the company that makes it all
- shipping
- business taxes on the company that sells the toothpaste to a store
- shipping
- business taxes on the company that sells the toothpaste to you
- income taxes on your income before you're allowed to buy toothpaste

If you count up all but the last part, a tube of toothpaste that costs $1 could actually cost $0.80 if no taxes existed. In addition, the average taxation on a person is something like 30% depending on which arbitrary tax bracket they're in.

Under the Fair Tax:
~23% inclusive tax on 1st point of sale
That's it
Thus a tube of toothpaste that used to cost $1 would now probably cost $1.02 or so.
Thus, instead of you having, say, 70 dollars to spend, you have 100.
On your receipt, it will say something along the lines of
"cost pre-tax: 0.78
 tax: $0.24
total cost: $1.02.
"
So the taxes are still there, just taken out at consumption rather than when you get your wages
And this rate assumes the same consumption rate of the US right now, and should give the same amount of revenue as the current tax system. However, if you know much about macroeconomics, this should move the economy forward a lot better than the current system. For more, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicted_effects_of_the_FairTax
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DJ

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #272 on: December 29, 2010, 11:20:47 am »

Why same tax rate on everything, though? I think luxuries like cars should be taxed more than essentials like bread, because you can give up driving but you can't give up eating.
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Tellemurius

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #273 on: December 29, 2010, 11:25:16 am »

Why same tax rate on everything, though? I think luxuries like cars should be taxed more than essentials like bread, because you can give up driving but you can't give up eating.
this is the reason why it never passed... listen, we are supposed to be a equality nation, one tax for everyone makes everyone happy.

malimbar04

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #274 on: December 29, 2010, 11:25:50 am »

Why same tax rate on everything, though? I think luxuries like cars should be taxed more than essentials like bread, because you can give up driving but you can't give up eating.
For simplicity, and for the sake of having a lower overall rate.

Once we start deciding what's necessary and what's not, the rate ends up going up a lot. If we made healthcare completely untaxed for example, and school, and every other little special interest, than the rate goes up and up until some things cost more than 2 times what they cost today.

Besides, essentials effectively aren't taxed, as I stated with the tax prebate I mentioned. That, and the luxury of a car (assuming a car is a luxury, my wife needs a car to get to her job) is already taxed more, evidenced by the fact that it costs more.
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Norseman

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #275 on: December 29, 2010, 11:26:49 am »

In response to malimbar04:

I wanted to go off and do some research to show that you were incorrect about your toothpaste example, but it turns out that you're exactly correct.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, sales tax is still not at all a fair tax. A fair tax would be one where you are taxed according to how much damage you do to society.

  • If you make money in any way other than working (i.e. if you profit), you should be taxed.
  • If you pollute (like BP did in the recent oil spill, or like a coal power plant), you should be taxed.
  • If you use up a lot of land, and leave too little land for other people, you should be taxed.
  • If you chop down trees, or go fishing (especially fishing), or hunting, you should be taxed.
  • If you make a misleading or false advertisement, you should be taxed heavily.
  • If you donate money to politicians or political parties, you should be taxed.
  • If you've collected welfare, or want to collect welfare in the future, you should be taxed (unless you're somehow disabled).

This is fair because you are made to pay for the damage that you cause to society, and if you don't do anything but contribute to society, it's unfair to say that you must contribute even more. To say that a gardener should pay at the same rate as BP is ridiculous.

Not only is your Fair Tax unfair, it's not economically sound either. Buying and selling things is good. That's what we want. In a healthy economy, there should be as much producing, buying and selling as people want. What we don't want is the pollution, corruption and environmental devastation that comes along with all of that industry.

For example, let's look at the first thing on my list there. If you raise taxes on profits, companies will need to reinvest to avoid the tax. That's why the economy grows when taxes are raised - those taxes make people choose between a little luxury now, or a large growth in their company allowing more luxury later. Yachts and Ferraris are generally bad investments. A Ferrari won't help you earn money faster. A new factory, or a new medicine will help you earn money, and they will help other people get jobs, and products that they need. For a growing economy, we want to encourage investment in production, resource extraction, recycling, technology, and so forth. Building a solar power plant is good. Buying a mansion is not. To encourage that, we can place taxes on profits so that you have to keep reinvesting your money to avoid the taxes. By reinvesting your money, you delay luxuries now, but can gain more luxuries later (and meanwhile, everyone will be richer because of that investment).

This is how you do a smart and genuinely fair tax.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:28:49 am by Norseman »
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Tellemurius

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #276 on: December 29, 2010, 11:27:33 am »

wait i pointed this out somewhere.....

malimbar04

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #277 on: December 29, 2010, 11:46:53 am »

In response to malimbar04:

I wanted to go off and do some research to show that you were incorrect about your toothpaste example, but it turns out that you're exactly correct.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, sales tax is still not at all a fair tax. A fair tax would be one where you are taxed according to how much damage you do to society.

  • If you make money in any way other than working (i.e. if you profit), you should be taxed.
  • If you pollute (like BP did in the recent oil spill, or like a coal power plant), you should be taxed.
  • If you use up a lot of land, and leave too little land for other people, you should be taxed.
  • If you chop down trees, or go fishing (especially fishing), or hunting, you should be taxed.
  • If you make a misleading or false advertisement, you should be taxed heavily.
  • If you donate money to politicians or political parties, you should be taxed.
  • If you've collected welfare, or want to collect welfare in the future, you should be taxed (unless you're somehow disabled).

This is fair because you are made to pay for the damage that you cause to society, and if you don't do anything but contribute to society, it's unfair to say that you must contribute even more. To say that a gardener should pay at the same rate as BP is ridiculous.
This is once again the differing definitions of fair. This, in my opinion, is the opposite of fair.
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Not only is your Fair Tax unfair, it's not economically sound either. Buying and selling things is good. That's what we want. In a healthy economy, there should be as much producing, buying and selling as people want. What we don't want is the pollution, corruption and environmental devastation that comes along with all of that industry.

For example, let's look at the first thing on my list there. If you raise taxes on profits, companies will need to reinvest to avoid the tax. That's why the economy grows when taxes are raised - those taxes make people choose between a little luxury now, or a large growth in their company allowing more luxury later. Yachts and Ferraris are generally bad investments. A Ferrari won't help you earn money faster. A new factory, or a new medicine will help you earn money, and they will help other people get jobs, and products that they need. For a growing economy, we want to encourage investment in production, resource extraction, recycling, technology, and so forth. Building a solar power plant is good. Buying a mansion is not. To encourage that, we can place taxes on profits so that you have to keep reinvesting your money to avoid the taxes. By reinvesting your money, you delay luxuries now, but can gain more luxuries later (and meanwhile, everyone will be richer because of that investment).

This is how you do a smart and genuinely fair tax.
What exactly is economically unsound about the fair tax? It does the exact economic things you mentioned, giving more money to people to choose what to buy or invest or move around. it's so simple that literally EVERYONE can understand it, completely removing the issue of taxes when you want to start a business or invest in this or that.

You're plan isn't well defined, is subject to arbitrary (and by definition less than perfect) laws designed to control society. It would have to be confusing and complicated, and would be subject to extensive control by those that understand it, IE rich people with well-paid advisors. Besides, who are we to decide what is a good purchase and what isn't? It could be that a recycyling plant is a waste of money that does little to help the environment (which is true depending on how they operate and what/how they recycle), or that resource extraction would absolutely destroy an area of land beyond repair. Promoting those specifically is not only micromanagement, it's potentially dangerous.

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Nikov

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #278 on: December 29, 2010, 12:40:30 pm »

If a rich man builds a mansion, how many carpenters, masons, electricians, plumbers, roofers, carpetlayers, painters and laborers now have a job to do? And how many factory workers making all those materials now have a job to do? And how many local restraunts now have customers to serve lunch to? And how many ways does that 'wasteful spending' give people a productive day's work two, three, four degrees of separation from the 'wasteful' house?

Do you just not approve of how they are spending money? If they aren't spending money on your pet ideals they should be punished by the state? And how do you try and pass that off as fair? It strikes me that you think fairness has to do with 'damaging society', even though I've never heard someone call a farmer ( who cuts trees, uses huge amounts of land, pollutes groundwater with runoff and makes money by having his business profit) 'damaging to society'.

And I don't understand. Why should a luxury car be taxed higher than a cheap car? That just makes luxury cars more expensive to the consumer and discourages high-quality vehicles on the road. Why do you honestly want to push middle-income drivers away from getting a high-quality, reliable and safe automobile, that they could otherwise afford, because you slapped a 25% 'luxury' tax on the good cars? What good does that possibly do to society aside from punishing rich people, or whatever nonsense you might use. And did you consider the factory worker assembling Lexus cars, working his way up the rest of the company's models until he got the high-paying, high-skill job on the luxury car lines? Do you really want to tax his factory out of a profit and get him laid off?
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DJ

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #279 on: December 29, 2010, 12:52:42 pm »

The problem is that rich people spend a lower percentage of their money. You only need so many mansions and yachts, and anything over that goes to Switzerland. And when they do spend money, they spend a lot more overseas than working class does. They also tend to move their money to tax havens, which takes it out of the national economy.

Also, if food is cheaper, less people have to get welfare. But to make food cheaper, you have to make something else more expensive.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 12:55:23 pm by DJ »
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Aqizzar

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #280 on: December 29, 2010, 12:58:53 pm »

And I don't understand. Why should a luxury car be taxed higher than a cheap car? That just makes luxury cars more expensive to the consumer and discourages high-quality vehicles on the road. Why do you honestly want to push middle-income drivers away from getting a high-quality, reliable and safe automobile, that they could otherwise afford, because you slapped a 25% 'luxury' tax on the good cars? What good does that possibly do to society aside from punishing rich people, or whatever nonsense you might use. And did you consider the factory worker assembling Lexus cars, working his way up the rest of the company's models until he got the high-paying, high-skill job on the luxury car lines? Do you really want to tax his factory out of a profit and get him laid off?

The problem is, that argument crumbles to sand when you attach real numbers to things.  For example: A car that already costs $600,000 is only going to be bought by the fabulously wealthy, why not gouge them for another hundred grand?  Someone who'd buy it at $600k would still buy it at $700k, and you've just generated more tax revenue than a few dozen minimum wage earners.

Why does this argument that taxing the wealthy will make them spend less, and therefor make everyone poorer?  Purchases by the wealthy do not generate industry.  A million more $30k cars are sold than $600k cars.  Heck, we don't even need to analyze the theory.  Taxes have been dropping for incomes over $250k, and incomes from investments especially, since 1980 at a much faster rate than taxes on lower, wage-based incomes.  The result has been stagnant wages and a shrinking economy, while the top 2% of income earners accumulate an ever larger percentage of wealth.  You can argue about theory all day long, the cold hard reality is we've already been throwing money at the already-wealthy for thirty years, and this shitty economy is the result.
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Phmcw

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #281 on: December 29, 2010, 12:59:40 pm »

malimbar04 : You go me thinking about it a bit, but this system seems a bit weak. I'm not sure though.

Nikov, you're just being yourself again : more expensive car aren't safer, at least not in Belgium, because there is such thing as drastic security regulation, you know?
Luxury car are luxury, thus are more taxed by basic goods. Why? Because every Belgian must live correctly, if some manage to live in luxury, better for them.

if a rich man build a mansion, he got a whole lot of resources to himself, so it should be avoided, because we can't all have a mansion. A reason for adjustable taxation is to avoid depletion of limited resources (IE land, who is scarce around here.).
if a society want to hire a Belgian, it must pay for his living : social security, education, and decent wages (around 1100€) at least.
It's  the way it is,  not an utopia.
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Norseman

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #282 on: December 29, 2010, 01:21:58 pm »

This is once again the differing definitions of fair. This, in my opinion, is the opposite of fair.

Well, what's unfair about it?

What exactly is economically unsound about the fair tax?

It doesn't account for negative externalities. If a company can choose between, say, spending $1 million and making their oil rig safe, or not making it safe and leaving a 1% chance that the oil rig will cost the rest of society $40 billion, we have two problems.

Problem one is that corporations provide limited liability to their owners. This means that if a company causes a huge amount of damage, or engages in massive amounts of fraud or something else, the owners of the company will only lose their investment in the company itself, they won't be asked to pay anything more than they put into the company. This means that if it's profitable enough, then a company would accept massive risks to society that would make it go bankrupt if they get some bad luck.

If we take the financial crisis for example, we can see that big companies accepted huge risks that would have made them bankrupt, likely resulting in another depression. The government had to bail them out because the risk they took on was too big. Why did they accept a risk of going bankrupt? Because short-term profit is all that matters. Corporations are not fully liable for the damage they cause. You can just take the money and run. This is a kind of negative externality.

Problem two is that even if the shareholders are held fully responsible, CEOs are the ones making the decisions. Again, to point to the financial crisis as an example, CEOs had a huge incentive to create risk in exchange for profit. This was because their income was linked to the profitability of their company, but only in the short-term. If the risk didn't manifest itself while they were in charge, then they could pass the risk on to someone else. So, the CEOs made decisions that were very expensive to their companies and society as a whole because it got them more money.

Negative externalities are a wart in free market economics. When you are able to pass some of your costs to society, you can earn more money, but it's not good for society as a whole. Costs to society should be paid back, and they should be paid back in the short-term as much as possible. Taking on massive risks that are quite profitable for a little while should never be an economically smart decision. Unfortunately, because of the way the rules worked, those CEOs made smart decisions - immoral, but smart. We need to make sure that costs can't be passed on to society (or to your company) so that we don't see economic growth stifled by parasites.

It does the exact economic things you mentioned, giving more money to people to choose what to buy or invest or move around.

Neither of our tax proposals give more money on average, they just shuffle the costs around. Giving people more money would involve cutting spending, and, in particular, cutting spending on things that people wouldn't buy if they had more money. If you cut spending on health care, for example, people will need to spend more money on health care, assuming they can get the money. Otherwise they die. But, assuming they can get the money, all that changes is who pays, not what services are provided or the cost of those services. On the other hand, if you cut spending on the military, or stop paying to keep potheads in jail, people would use that money to get something more useful to them than tanks and jets and stuff. That's a very important change.

it's so simple that literally EVERYONE can understand it, completely removing the issue of taxes when you want to start a business or invest in this or that.

Not exactly. I'm assuming that you think that there should be no sales tax on the sales of investments. If you buy a yacht with the intent of renting it commercially, and just happen to occasionally use the yacht yourself, is it an investment or a product that should be taxed? What if you rented it for a few years first, and then started to use it yourself? If you allow people to avoid sales taxes on investments, but not on other purchases, you'd have to very clearly define how to decide which kind of purchase people are making. Naturally, most people who don't have a lot of money won't be able to afford the advice of people who understand that definition.

You're plan isn't well defined, is subject to arbitrary (and by definition less than perfect) laws designed to control society. It would have to be confusing and complicated, and would be subject to extensive control by those that understand it, IE rich people with well-paid advisors.

You've just described the entire legal system. It would be impossible to make laws that are not somewhat arbitrary unless you also make them incompatible with justice and fairness. There's a lot of nuance to the ideas of justice and fairness, and not everyone can agree - but to take the nuance out of it is a guarantee that you will have a system that most people think is unfair. If you read The Myth of the Rule of Law, I think you'll see the point.

The way to deal with the problem you've stated is actually fairly simple. You only need to have one legal principle - harm to society should be taxed, and should be taxed promptly. Allow companies and people to settle out of court, and encourage it. Let anyone take a company or person to court for causing harm to them or society at large, and have the government hire investigators to watch out for those situations where the harm is difficult to spot and potentially huge. Have a big jury, maybe 300-500 people to make sure you have a fairly representative sample of the population. Allow the jury to vote on whether someone or some company is causing harm to society and not adequately compensating for it in taxes, philanthropy, community service or whatever. If so, allow the prosecutor to propose one fine (or other form of compensation), and allow the defendant to make a counter-offer. Let the jury vote on which offer they prefer.

In this way, the prosecutor and the defendant will have to come to a compromise. If the prosecutor is unreasonable, the jury won't agree so easily, unless the defendant is even more unreasonable. They will both have to come as close as they can to an acceptable form of compensation for the defendant to repay society.

The defendant should have to pay the court fees according to the percentage of the jury that voted against him. If 90% of the jury say he's guilty, then he pays 90% of the court fees (not including any fees for lawyers). Likewise, the prosecutor pays court fees according to how much of the court thinks the defendant is innocent, so, in the above example, the prosecutor would pay 10% of the court fees. This encourages both parties to keep the trial short, and to settle out of court, or go to a third-party court if they can.

You could also add on a limit where defendants or prosecutors don't need to pay. For example, if 25% or less of the jury say the defendant is guilty, the prosecutor pays for everything. If 75% or more say the defendant is guilty, then the defendant pays for everything.

Besides, who are we to decide what is a good purchase and what isn't? It could be that a recycyling plant is a waste of money that does little to help the environment (which is true depending on how they operate and what/how they recycle), or that resource extraction would absolutely destroy an area of land beyond repair. Promoting those specifically is not only micromanagement, it's potentially dangerous.

It's true, some recycling plants would just be a waste of money. Let the courts decide if investors and communities can't agree with each other on the matter. It doesn't need to be written into law - technology changes too quickly for the law to keep up, and if the law did change quickly enough to keep up, we would have a serious problem because no one would know what the law is.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 02:02:27 pm by Norseman »
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Norseman

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #283 on: December 29, 2010, 01:59:51 pm »

If a rich man builds a mansion, how many carpenters, masons, electricians, plumbers, roofers, carpetlayers, painters and laborers now have a job to do?
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You could spend a billion dollars to hire tens of thousands of miners to dig a really big hole in the ground, or you could build a solar power plant.

If you build a concentrated solar power plant, it would cost about $2.5/joule, and you'd get about 6 watt-hours per day for each joule, yielding about 2 KWh/year for every $2.5. One KWh is currently worth about 12 cents in California (but would be worth probably 5 cents with this much electricity), so you'd get back about 10 cents per year for every $2.5 you spend on the power plant. So, you'd spend $1 billion to make a power plant that earns you $400 million per year, minus any costs for maintenance.

If you build the hole in the ground, you might get some money from tourism. Probably not much, considering that the solar power industry is growing and doing quite well, while the hole-in-the-ground industry is not so popular.

In the same way, if you can buy a yacht or a factory at equal prices, there will of course be jobs involved in constructing both of them. However, the factory will provide continuing jobs and more and more money, while the yacht will not. No matter how money is spent, short-term jobs will be created. In the long-run, for an economy to grow and for wages to rise, people need to be able to produce more for the same amount of effort. When you have better tools, you can make better products faster, which will allow you to get more money for the same amount of work. That money would allow you to get even better tools so that the cycle can continue. If you fritter that money on digging holes in the ground, the growth cycle slows down, or comes to a halt, since you can't keep making more money than before if you don't get better tools.
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ed boy

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #284 on: December 29, 2010, 02:04:37 pm »

if a rich man build a mansion, he got a whole lot of resources to himself, so it should be avoided, because we can't all have a mansion.
So if not everybody can have something, you would prefer that nobody can rather than some people can?

However, the factory will provide continuing jobs and more and more money, while the yacht will not.
Although owning a yacht for personal use might not generate any money, it does generate enjoyment for the one who uses it. People are willing to sacrifice money for enjoyment.
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