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[Zrk2]

Hellz yeah!

(Soory Realmfighter, I stole your line)

[Aqizzar]

If we apply your logic to almost anything the rampant cynicism would lead to the conclusion that we can't change anything. But we can (Damn, I hate sounding like a cheezy motivational speaker.). Even if we can't, who cares? Bugger them, and give it a try!

Yes things do change.  With laws, and governments.

Which is the more cynical position?  The one that says, government is always the problem, and people who get crushed by economics got what they deserve for not being magically astute enough.  Or the one that says, money seeks more money, and forced arbitration keeps those with more from trampling those with less.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

it is not an option when we're talking about things like the automobile, airlines and healthcare industry. it's not just a company, it's the whole industry against the consumer, you can't decide to ditch this hospital to go to that one that is cheaper, because they work together to keep the prices high.

[Realmfighter]

it is not an option when we're talking about things like the automobile, airlines and healthcare industry.

Bike, Train, Death.

Simple.

[ECrownofFire]

it is not an option when we're talking about things like the automobile, airlines and healthcare industry.

Bike, Train, Death.

Simple.

Ah, but then you're supporting the bike companies, the steel companies, and the railways, which are even MORE of an oligopoly than airlines.

You have to boycott modern society for it to be possible.

[Zrk2]

it is not an option when we're talking about things like the automobile, airlines and healthcare industry. it's not just a company, it's the whole industry against the consumer, you can't decide to ditch this hospital to go to that one that is cheaper, because they work together to keep the prices high.

So? There are people out there intelligent enough to break these cartels apart, that also do not work for them. It is not that hard. Just abandon one until it has to do something drastic to get customers back, and then use that to your advantage.

And yes, we are both being cynical here.

[Aqizzar]

it is not an option when we're talking about things like the automobile, airlines and healthcare industry. it's not just a company, it's the whole industry against the consumer, you can't decide to ditch this hospital to go to that one that is cheaper, because they work together to keep the prices high.

So? There are people out there intelligent enough to break these cartels apart, that also do not work for them. It is not that hard.

I'm not sure who's being more entertaining here, you or Realmfighter.

[ECrownofFire]

it is not an option when we're talking about things like the automobile, airlines and healthcare industry. it's not just a company, it's the whole industry against the consumer, you can't decide to ditch this hospital to go to that one that is cheaper, because they work together to keep the prices high.

So? There are people out there intelligent enough to break these cartels apart, that also do not work for them. It is not that hard. Just abandon one until it has to do something drastic to get customers back, and then use that to your advantage.

And yes, we are both being cynical here.

Like I said, and will keep saying, it's still temporary. You boycott one, and somehow get a massive amount of people on it, they lower their prices, now what? Either you go back, after which they just up their prices again, or you don't go back (or don't stay with them long enough after you switch back to them), and you've created a monopoly, or a smaller oligopoly.

[Realmfighter]

Ah, but then you're supporting the bike companies, the steel companies, and the railways, which are even MORE of an oligopoly than airlines.

You have to boycott modern society for it to be possible.

Ah, but both bike and train Oligopolies are adorable tiny little oligopolies.

I do see the problem with cemeteries though.

[Zrk2]

Yes, it will never work in the real world because there will always those who choose to use immoral means to achieve their ends. Which means government intervention will always be necessary, no matter how much I may detest it.

[malimbar04]

I swear when I posted this thread I had no idea it would lead to a 2 person sniping match for 10 pages. I swear when I left it two days ago there was 2 pages of mainly curiosity. I'll post a brief response to everyone tonight, and hopefully a better one tomorrow.

@ DJ : Please, provide better counter-ideas. We do not change the world by saying someone else is wrong (let alone without detailed and accurate information). Instead, we get far better results by providing a better alternative reality.

@Virex : The biggest problem I see with this idea of nearly pure libertarianism (presented as far more extreme than Ron Paul is suggesting), is the problem of information.
Rule 1: People are idiots. You and I are not immune.
Rule 2: Competative industries try to gain any advantage to get more users.
I think these two combined result in the most corruption and evil. Before any regulation of individual markets, people used all sorts of bad products with teh promise that they would be useful. Scams are aplenty. Dickish moves are even more aplenty. Cooperation is common, but far less so than it is today.

@ Everyone : A small government is a weak government (on any level). Government, I figure, is only supposed to exist so far as companies and individuals can not help themselves. However, any organization that is to survive wants to gain power and control. How do we double-check the power of government? The answer, due to a major problem of logistics and conflict of interest, can not lie entirely in the government itself.

[Zrk2]

Ideally, the only purpose of government would be to protect the rights of the individuals within it.

[ECrownofFire]

Yes, it will never work in the real world because there will always those who choose to use immoral means to achieve their ends. Which means government intervention will always be necessary, no matter how much I may detest it.

Things like these are why a pure laissez-faire economy are completely stupid. You just end up with a few mega-corporations.

Ideally, the only purpose of government would be to protect the rights of the individuals within it.

I completely agree with that. And to prevent economic monopolies/oligopolies, which infringe upon economic rights (and in some cases, actual rights).

[Grakelin]

The government determines what those rights are, as well.

[ECrownofFire]

The government determines what those rights are, as well.

Fuck no. Ideally, they wouldn't. But in the real world, that's what ultimately happens.