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[Virex]

As a matter of fact, yes it does work in France.  They have vastly better health, longer life expectancy, better education achievement, virtually equal quality of living, and they get longer vacations.  You don't see shit like that happening in America for two reasons.  One is that everyone's too fat to riot.  The other is that American politics has done a fantastic job over the last thirty years of brainwashing a slim majority of voters that all social services are inherently evil and rewarding to deadbeats, and that you, yes you, will be a millionaire one day and not need any of those social services, not matter how many times your pay is cut so your boss can give himself another seven-figure bonus.

In other words, the French get more money working less, live longer working less, stop working altogether earlier, steal from the EU to be able to work even less, steal from the people who do work hard so the rest can work even less, steal from people who work hard so some people can afford not to work at all their whole life and steal from hard working people so some people can spend 28 years of their lives doing nothing, get a paper and then get money doing something that doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever, no?

Oh and they steal from everyone so their farmers can lead a rich life while producing worthless crops and they steal from everyone so some people can go to break their arm so they get more money then the people who do work hard and are smart enough to not break anything. Seriously, trying to be a worthwhile citizen in Europe feels like you're trying to walk up a staircase and everyone else keeps pulling you off or tossing barrels of water down the stairs because god forbid if you manage to get up that stairs while the rest is too lazy to even try.

[Aqizzar]

Which is exactly why I said I don't include "morality" and "worth" when discussing social security policies.  Eventually, you realize that you're going to have to support people that you don't want to support.  A lot of people.  Probably even everyone who isn't like yourself.  And once you start drawing lines between who's worth supporting and who's not, you're inherently saying that some people are worthless and some people are needlessly pampered, and if you dwell on it too much it makes the whole system seem like it's completely ineffective and ready to collapse at any moment, when in reality most industrial countries' safety-net programs are vital to the existence of their labor force, and very much paid for indefinitely by said labor force.

If you just stop trying to discern the moral underpinnings, and look at it in mathematical terms, it all works out fine.

[Virex]

Why should anyone be forced to support anyone else in the first place? People have all the tools they need to care for themselves and if they want to they can care for others as well. If some people are to stubborn or, god forbid, too stupid to take the opportunities*, then I don't think they should be helped in the first place.


*like insuring themselves against disease or being fired, putting aside some money in case something breaks, building p a pension et cetera.

[DJ]

What's really horrible is that I have to pay for fire department even though my house has never been on fire, just because some people are irresponsible about turning off their stoves before leaving their house.

But even worse is that I have to support building a bridge in a part of my town that I never even go to.

And don't even get me started on paying for schools when I neither have children nor intend to have any.

[Virex]

Exactly. All those things can be supported by people who want or need it, if they'd just take proper precautions and put some money aside. In this world people don't have to think for themselves anymore because the government does everything for them. People don't have to take responsibilities and thus we get all the responsible behavior we see now that's causing almost all problems we have now. Give people the means to tend to their own needs and give them the incentive to do so and stop doing everything for them.

[DJ]

I agree, we should abolish taxes altogether, and government services along with them. A rifle in your hands is much better protection than the police force and the military anyway.

[Aqizzar]

*like insuring themselves against disease or being fired, putting aside some money in case something breaks, building p a pension et cetera.

Go to a nursing home and talk to any random person.  Any one of them.  Everyone thinks they're either immune to disaster or totally seriously smart enough to prepare for it.

Then the banking industry collapses and wipes out your 401k.  Or you get clobbered by a drunk driver with a good lawyer and you rack up a six figure medical bill.  Or your insurance company insists the flooding destroyed your house before the hurricane did, so your policy is worthless, and you can't afford to fight them over it.  Or your child is born with no arms and you're too loving a parent to put him down like a sick puppy.

The point is, you are not invincible, and no one else is.  And even if there were options that a person never sat down to explore, do you really want a bunch of destitute people drifting around your society?

[DJ]

Nah, you can totally save up enough money for any emergency, you just need to stop eating to cut your living costs.

[Virex]

I agree, we should abolish taxes altogether, and government services along with them. A rifle in your hands is much better protection than the police force and the military anyway.

While the idea of abolishing the police force at once is, I think, a bit too far-fetched at this moment, I wouldn't be opposed to gradually transferring law enforcement to a force made up from and ran by the populace. After all, they know best how to keep the peace in their local communities.

*like insuring themselves against disease or being fired, putting aside some money in case something breaks, building p a pension et cetera.

Go to a nursing home and talk to any random person.  Any one of them.  Everyone thinks they're either immune to disaster or totally seriously smart enough to prepare for it.

Then the banking industry collapses and wipes out your 401k.  Or you get clobbered by a drunk driver with a good lawyer and you rack up a six figure medical bill.  Or your insurance company insists the flooding destroyed your house before the hurricane did, so your policy is worthless, and you can't afford to fight them over it.  Or your child is born with no arms and you're too loving a parent to put him down like a sick puppy.

The point is, you are not invincible, and no one else is.  And even if there were options that a person never sat down to explore, do you really want a bunch of destitute people drifting around your society?

Well, the first one is exactly because people don't have the responsibility they need now. They know that if things turn bad, they can always fall back and leech the community. What I am saying is that if you stop pampering people this way, they'll realize they need to take matters into their own hands. Or they don't but that problem should solve itself eventually and humanity will be all the better for it. Also, once people start realizing that banks are too great a danger for long-term savings, either mosre stable options are bound to pop up, because people are inventive, or people will once again start saving the old-fashioned way, which works just as well.

[Willfor]

And even if there were options that a person never sat down to explore, do you really want a bunch of destitute people drifting around your society?

If they are anything like these destitute people, then yes.

[Aqizzar]

...a force made up from and ran by the populace. After all, they know best how to keep the peace in their local communities.

What the fuck do you think a police force is?  Do you think they roll out of a factory somewhere and are trucked in?

[DJ]

I assume he wants to replace police with torch and pitchfork mobs. Them pesky courts just get in the way of lynching the undesirables anyway.

[Virex]

A pitchfork wouldn't be effective against the drug cartels that are running half of the mayor cities nowadays. They're also engaged with the so called "independent" judges, so in effect, in many cases I'd trust the local community more to keep the peace then I'd trust the "justice" system.

...a force made up from and ran by the populace. After all, they know best how to keep the peace in their local communities.

What the fuck do you think a police force is?  Do you think they roll out of a factory somewhere and are trucked in?

I don't know how it is in the US, but over here, people are tucked away for a year in some kind of school, supposedly to learn about how to keep the law, and then get stationed in some place in the rough vicinity of where they live. But this means they're completely disjoint from their community for a year and most likely will be put to work in a completely different community after that. so yes, they could just as well have been rolled out of a factory in Uzbekistan.

[DJ]

Well, the first one is exactly because people don't have the responsibility they need now. They know that if things turn bad, they can always fall back and leech the community. What I am saying is that if you stop pampering people this way, they'll realize they need to take matters into their own hands. Or they don't but that problem should solve itself eventually and humanity will be all the better for it.

If by solution you mean a thousandfold increase in crime, then yes, it will solve itself. Or do you expect people who lose their job to lay in a ditch and starve to death?

Also, once people start realizing that banks are too great a danger for long-term savings, either mosre stable options are bound to pop up, because people are inventive, or people will once again start saving the old-fashioned way, which works just as well.

You fail economics forever. Saving money in mattresses reduces liquidity of the national economy, and if everyone did it the economy would collapse. This is why modest inflation is a good thing - it discourages people from taking money out of circulation.

[Virex]

Well, the first one is exactly because people don't have the responsibility they need now. They know that if things turn bad, they can always fall back and leech the community. What I am saying is that if you stop pampering people this way, they'll realize they need to take matters into their own hands. Or they don't but that problem should solve itself eventually and humanity will be all the better for it.

If by solution you mean a thousandfold increase in crime, then yes, it will solve itself. Or do you expect people who lose their job to lay in a ditch and starve to death?

Which is another reason why I'm in favor of localized police forces made up from people who know the community. They know who's likely to go and fill their deficits with someone else's money and can respond in kind, while the "police" would first of all have to wait till after they've robbed half the street of all valuables and kill someone before they're allowed to investigate in the first place. But I think you're grossly overestimating the intelligence and ingenuity of the kind of people we're talking about here.

Also, once people start realizing that banks are too great a danger for long-term savings, either more stable options are bound to pop up, because people are inventive, or people will once again start saving the old-fashioned way, which works just as well.

You fail economics forever. Saving money in mattresses reduces liquidity of the national economy, and if everyone did it the economy would collapse.

If it does reduce the liquidity more then just saving it in a bank account, then the bank is spending my money for me and that's something they'd better stop doing right now or else I'm getting my money back. (joking here)


But people are inventive (at least most of them would be if they'd have had the incentive to become inventive), they'll find a way to make the economy tick. Unlike you I believe in the ability of people to care for themselves and the world and I believe they don't need some kind of mystical government entity who decides what's right and what's wrong for them to be successful.