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Author Topic: Political theory  (Read 16584 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2010, 09:11:29 am »

I... don't suppose the fact that it works in the rest of the developed world factors into your thinking that it can't work?
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DJ

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2010, 09:13:01 am »

Seriously, what's with the hard-on for state government? Them big city folks will still neglect rural communities, even if they're in the same state. So really, you should be preaching transfer of most power to local government. Hell, you should get rid of states altogether, because they're just another burden on the local communities, and just keep national government for stuff like powerlines and interstates (what would you call an interstate if there weren't states?).
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Aqizzar

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2010, 09:26:06 am »

But then, I don't think its the federal government's role to take everyone else's money to pay for my personal welfare. We likely disagree on that more than any particular bit of policy, so discussing the policy will just result in butting heads since the disagreement runs deeper. I think there's something to be said for a state government dabbling in such programs, since if a very successful system does come out of one of the fifty states the rest can tailor it to their own needs, and in an exceedingly limited way national programs for the welfare of certain persons, but I'm referring to things like veteran's care and possibly childbirth expenses (after all, how could you hate new mothers and newer taxpayers?). But why should marathon runners in San Francisco pay for donut-munching layabouts in Jersey when they get their inevitable heart attack? If they volunteered to buy the same insurance policy, that's fine. But if they were forced to buy the same policy, that uses coercion to make the responsible pay for the irresponsible. That is no basis for a just society of free citizens.

You've managed to hit the moral pothole of social welfare both ways running.  On the one hand, you ask who could hate new mothers.  Well, that implies being fine with hating other people.  You ask why healthy people should pay for lardasses.  Well, what's the difference between the new mother's life and the fat guy's life?  Hypothetically, I hate children and have no intention of having any, but I still pay property taxes so your obnoxious children can go to public school, because you can't afford private schooling for them.

The point is, if you're willing to accept one form of social welfare, like childbirth expenses, on purely moralistic grounds, but not others, like universal emergency care, you're necessarily deciding whose life is worth more on essentially nothing more than a gut reaction.  And if you're fine with that, then you're fine with that and there's nothing more to be said; certainly it's an easy argument to justify on practical grounds who better "deserves" enough concern to burden the rest the of society.  If I can explain my own stance that likewise brings the discussion to a logjam, it's that I think making that decision is itself immoral.  Sure, caring about veterans and new mothers is moral.  I say if you're not willing to extend that concern to everyone, it blows the moral legs out from under the whole idea, and devolves into plain old enforcing cultural values through legislation.

Sure, it's reactionary, but that's where I'm coming from.  The phrase "just society of free citizens" is where it always come apart for me.  I fundamentally believe that there is no such thing as a "just society of free citizens", and trying to chase that idea leads to cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Priority one is making a government that can function of its own accord in relationship to the reality around itself, which I think necessitates a lot more "action" for lack of a better word than the Night-Watchman ideal.  Priority two is removing the major burdens from everyone's lives, and if at the cost of a minor burden or two like the occasional waiting line or tax (and remember that American taxes pale in comparison to other industrial nations) then so be it, as the cost a functioning, dare I say it moral, society that doesn't leave anyone out in the cold because of quaint ideals or unrealistic assumptions.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 09:27:38 am by Aqizzar »
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Nikov

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2010, 09:28:01 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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DJ

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2010, 09:30:43 am »

It's working perfectly in Germany, despite the fact that they're also financing half the EU. UK has retarded government, and French, Spanish and Italians are just plain lazy. No idea what's going on with Switzerland, though.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2010, 09:32:55 am »

As a matter of fact, yes it does work in France.  They have vastly better health, longer life expectancy, better education achievement, virtually equal quality of living, and they get longer vacations.  You don't see shit like that happening in America for two reasons.  One is that everyone's too fat to riot.  The other is that American politics has done a fantastic job over the last thirty years of brainwashing a slim majority of voters that all social services are inherently evil and rewarding to deadbeats, and that you, yes you, will be a millionaire one day and not need any of those social services, not matter how many times your pay is cut so your boss can give himself another seven-figure bonus.

And hey, as long as we're dragging every tin-pot argument back onto the table anyway, why not once again proffer that the United States could have all that and more if we didn't spend more on our military than the rest of the planet combined.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 09:35:19 am by Aqizzar »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2010, 09:34:46 am »

I would like you to source that diagram.  Mostly because it's grade A bullshit.  You've used overall debt instead of public debt in order to reinforce your point, and the US figure seems completely erroneous - most sources seem to suggest it's somewhere around 380%.  The only explanation I have is that you're using private and public debt for Europe and only public debt for America.
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Nikov

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2010, 10:02:54 am »

Sure thing.

And you're right, Aqizzar. Although I was being facetious with the paranthetical comment about how could anyone hate babies (Although really. How could anyone hate babies? I've got one on my lap right now. He's farting on my hip and squealing and being so cuuuuuute) you are correct that you cannot arbitrarily draw a line, it either is or isn't. So no free child's healthcare, public schools or food stamps. As you demonstrated, its only a gut reaction that you would want those things.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2010, 10:06:51 am »

Since the US comes out as badly if not worse than Europe on all of those measures, am I to believe that you edited the image you posted earlier?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2010, 10:18:15 am »

As a matter of fact, yes it does work in France.  They have vastly better health, longer life expectancy, better education achievement, virtually equal quality of living, and they get longer vacations.
This is a bit off topic, but as I understand it, the U.S. has far fewer vacations than Western European nations as an extended result of the Puritan influence on the nation's early history. They had such a rigid stance against leisure that it still survives today. Of course, if you get less vacation time, then you'll likely have more stress, which causes heath problems, which in turn reduces life expectancy. Just saying.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 10:27:04 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Nikov

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2010, 10:26:02 am »

Since the US comes out as badly if not worse than Europe on all of those measures, am I to believe that you edited the image you posted earlier?

I don't really care enough about you to bother with something like that, so sorry, no.

Well I'm being accused of editing graphs and outright lying so I'll just mosey on to something else for a few hours. There's no point in even having these discussions if this is what happens.
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Gantolandon

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2010, 10:47:36 am »

Quote
But then, I don't think its the federal government's role to take everyone else's money to pay for my personal welfare. We likely disagree on that more than any particular bit of policy, so discussing the policy will just result in butting heads since the disagreement runs deeper. I think there's something to be said for a state government dabbling in such programs, since if a very successful system does come out of one of the fifty states the rest can tailor it to their own needs, and in an exceedingly limited way national programs for the welfare of certain persons, but I'm referring to things like veteran's care and possibly childbirth expenses (after all, how could you hate new mothers and newer taxpayers?). But why should marathon runners in San Francisco pay for donut-munching layabouts in Jersey when they get their inevitable heart attack? If they volunteered to buy the same insurance policy, that's fine. But if they were forced to buy the same policy, that uses coercion to make the responsible pay for the irresponsible. That is no basis for a just society of free citizens.

The problem is, that without social welfare you pay for the irresponsible either. Without decent healthcare you have poor people running around with potentially contagious diseases, viruses and bacterias mutating in their bodies into new, possibly more deadly forms. Even not healing a donut-eater from heart attack has consequences, if he is the only one who provide for his family - otherwise his wife and kids would become another beneficient of social welfare, which would probably be more expensive than paying for his by-passes.

Less social welfare means more poor people and more crime. Do I have to explain why is this bad?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2010, 11:05:47 am »

I don't really care enough about you to bother with something like that, so sorry, no.

Well I'm being accused of editing graphs and outright lying so I'll just mosey on to something else for a few hours. There's no point in even having these discussions if this is what happens.
You could just explain how you got it rather than going into a sulk.  Because the source you gave can't produce the screenshot you did earlier.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2010, 11:29:59 am »

He'd find another reason to say he's being persecuted and hated on later.  It's a big game for him, edge right up to being reasonable and equitable, then pull out some outrageous claims or intentionally ridiculous misinterpretations of other people's arguments, and throw a big "I said good day sir" like he's the magnanimous one for walking out on a room full of hatemongers.  I'd almost forgotten how entertaining it is to watch.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Political theory
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2010, 11:33:39 am »

it's so entertaining that i'm subscribing to this thread without posting anything meaningful.
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