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[Zrk2]

Ok, understood Toady.

Re DJ: This relates back to being proactive. If you want to be able to afford the cheaper dialysis then you have to choose to pay more for the aspirin. Everything involves trade offs.

Re Gantolandon: He did not mean that hospitals are like restaurants. He meant that in one respect customer interactions with them are similar, and easier to understand if you use a restaurant to explain it.

As to your refutation of his list, he means that those things should be the only things enforced.

Re Virex: Thanks for providing a reasonable right wing view point in this thread.

[DJ]

Most people don't end up needing dialysis, so it makes better sense to opt for the cheaper aspirin, especially since you have to save up cash to survive in a world without unemployment benefits.

[Zrk2]

No, you woulld choose the more expensive aspirin because you did not want to take the chance on needing dialysis, if you go for the cheap aspirin don't whine when you have to pay for the dialysis. You can't ha ve your cake and eat it too.

[DJ]

Yeah, but if you pay more for all sorts of things to support certain companies you won't have enough cash for food and rent if you get fired. So you lose either way.

[Zrk2]

No, you prioritize.

Or you could (This is crazy) join a consumer union. They would be just like normal unions, only instead of fighting for a better deal from your employer, they would fight for a better deal from suppliers of goods you want. They would act to balance out the power of companies and would therefore provide consumers with better value for their dollar.

[Aqizzar]

Or you could (This is crazy) join a consumer union. They would be just like normal unions, only instead of fighting for a better deal from your employer, they would fight for a better deal from suppliers of goods you want. They would act to balance out the power of companies and would therefore provide consumers with better value for their dollar.

I suppose you've never heard of the concept of oligarchism then.  I can't start my own airline company.  There's only a handful of airline companies.  People need to fly.  If they all charge similar prices, and stay within very small price levels of each other, they can charge as much as they want.  No consumer union could do anything about it, because you have to fly with somebody, so they just all charge similarly high prices.

The exact same dynamic happens with pharmaceuticals, insurance providers, and any other big necessary example you care to name.  Basically every industry with massive start-up costs and therefore few providers.  Once again, without a force of law to step in and lay groundrules, the already-wealthy set the rules themselves, in their favor.

[Zrk2]

I did not mean that they would start their own companies, just that they would bargain with the companies over prices, the same way modern unions do over wages.

If we apply your logic to almost anything the rampant cynicism would lead to the conclusion that we can't change anything. But we can (Damn, I hate sounding like a cheezy motivational speaker.). Even if we can't, who cares? Bugger them, and give it a try!

[Leafsnail]

I did not mean that they would start their own companies, just that they would bargain with the companies over prices, the same way modern unions do over wages.

If we apply your logic to almost anything the rampant cynicism would lead to the conclusion that we can't change anything. But we can (Damn, I hate sounding like a cheezy motivational speaker.). Even if we can't, who cares? Bugger them, and give it a try!

Sounds great!

We could form a union!  It would be a big group of people, so let's call it... hmm... a "party".  And since it would have political influence, I guess it would be a "Political party".

Now, we'd have more influence over the country if we had government representatives.  So we could start fielding candidates to contest each seat, and trying to get the president to be a member of this "party".

From that position, we could then get the president to pass laws to prevent companies from screwing us over!  It's a perfect plan!

[Zrk2]

Ok, you win at sarcasming.

The only thing is that you should never force others into this system. I am not against reasonable prices, I am against forcing them on people. If the owners of companies want to be assholes, let them. Then people can go shop at other stores/whatever the specific company is involved in.

Alternatively, if enough people are pissed off about prices on a certain good, go ahead and start a company to build it cheaper. If I think it has reasonable chances of success, I would sure as hell (maybe that's a bad example) invest in it.

[ECrownofFire]

Ok, you win at sarcasming.

The only thing is that you should never force others into this system. I am not against reasonable prices, I am against forcing them on people. If the owners of companies want to be assholes, let them. Then people can go shop at other stores/whatever the specific company is involved in.

Alternatively, if enough people are pissed off about prices on a certain good, go ahead and start a company to build it cheaper. If I think it has reasonable chances of success, I would sure as hell (maybe that's a bad example) invest in it.

But the thing is, there are no "other stores" to go to when you're talking about pharmaceutical companies or airlines. You want it cheaper, you don't go to any of them. The airlines hold a oligopoly (thank you Wikipedia for this word), as do the pharmaceutical companies.

You want more examples of this? Steel, electricity, internet access, cars, airplanes, mining, agriculture, publishing, the list goes on and on. You can't start up a company in those examples, don't ever try. It's an oligopoly, so unless you feel like completely changing the economic principles of the US, don't bother. The few things that aren't included in this include the arts, and gaming. The actual publishing for those is where it gets difficult, except when you can digitally publish, where games are the most successful example.

[Zrk2]

You could switch to one, leaving the other with no customers, so it would have to lower prices to draw you back. There is never an end to the options available.

[ECrownofFire]

You could switch to one, leaving the other with no customers, so it would have to lower prices to draw you back. There is never an end to the options available.

But what's the use of that? At best, you're just temporarily giving one company a cash inflow. At worst, you just created a monopoly.

[Zrk2]

No, you deliver the one you left an ultimatum to lower prices or go out of business. They will change before they go bankrupt, use their greed to your advantage!

[Realmfighter]

You could boycott there products entirely.

[ECrownofFire]

No, you deliver the one you left an ultimatum to lower prices or go out of business. They will change before they go bankrupt, use their greed to your advantage!

Once again, it's only temporary. They're just going to raise their prices once they get out of trouble.

And Realmfighter, boycott one of those big companies, just try. You want to boycott electricity or steel? Or medication? Yeah, boycotting modern society is what you're really doing if you try.