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[Ø]

What is the purpose of "childhood"? Looking at any other animal, "play" and "fun" is mostly training for and practicing things they'll have to do when they're adults, fighting and hunting and such. Modern times with humans, "fun" and "play" usually has almost nothing to do with adult life. I'm thinking of back in the day when social economic output wasn't high enough to sustain a large unemployed population. Early industrialization and prior when children were miniature adults training to be adults. Would I rather have a "childhood" under heavy responsibility as an apprentice for a dangerous job? No, living conditions were horrible, but it would have done a whole lot more for me. Sure there's "imaginative" play, building motor and coordination, honing social skills, and a bunch of other essential skills every human needs to function, but children aren't really "trained" for any significantly useful jobs anymore and the modern generations are being raised on fantasy worlds and trained to live in Skinner's boxes. At best, some become moderately proficient in useful technical computer skills, but uncomfortable truth: Some people really do completely piss away their lives and it's even easier than ever and it's practically encouraged.

I wish I could go back in a time machine, slap those stupid games and toys out of my hand and give myself some textbooks, certificates of deposit, and something skill based like a musical instrument or programming books or art supplies or anything really. It's only now I realize what a stupid stupid waste of time my childhood was with my stupid toys. Thank god for (mostly) mandatory education, else I'd probably an entirely useless individual.

We need mandatory apprenticeship starting at or just before kindergarten to make up for the completely worthless and mind-rotting modern forms of entertainment. I like the modern standard of living, but now I can really really appreciate the usefulness and future preparation that was old-world "childhood", before the childhood stage was idolized into the whole "protect the children from the horrors of adulthood" thing.

/rant

[Realmfighter]

I see your problem.

Your in that terrible area directly between Catatonicly chill Hippy and Manic Depressive Nihilist.

You're going to die, and everything will have been pointless because you are dead and unable to be proud of even the most amazing achievements.. You can play that video game. You can waste your life. You can do anything. I believe in you.

[Ø]

I see your problem.

Your in that terrible area directly between Catatonicly chill Hippy and Manic Depressive Nihilist.

If this were in Life Advice I'd say /thread. I didn't even realize this until you said that but holy shi-, you hit the nail on the head perfectly.

Seriously though, a Plan B, trained from early childhood. Doesn't even have to be something they grow up to do, or even want to pursue later. Looking back I wish I had one, and I realize I was too irresponsible to do that myself. Even if I had a time machine, I would have sneered at my future self and resumed mindless self indulgence. Children aren't responsible enough with the freedom they're given. Solution? Make it mandatory as early education is.

[Realmfighter]

Why would you even do that.

I mean, everything we do is basically us striving for mindless Hedonism, so why in Gods name would you want to ruin the mindless Hedonism we have already?

[Il Palazzo]

If you had a time machine, and went back to enact a mandatory appreticeship for kids, then I'd have to dust off my time machine, and go back in time to give you a piece of my mind.
I really wouldn't want my carefree childhood to be spoiled by somebody who just doesn't have enough commitment to work on his skills himself, or at least enough humility to recognize that the fault lies in his choices, and not in the education system.

[FuzzyZergling]

I see your problem.

Your in that terrible area directly between Catatonicly chill Hippy and Manic Depressive Nihilist.

You're going to die, and everything will have been pointless because you are dead and unable to be proud of even the most amazing achievements.. You can play that video game. You can waste your life. You can do anything. I believe in you.

You are the best sort of person.

[Realmfighter]

You are the best sort of person.

I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but I don't really think it matters.

It does not matter because so much love right now.

[ChairmanPoo]

If you had a time machine, and went back to enact a mandatory appreticeship for kids, then I'd have to dust off my time machine, and go back in time to give you a piece of my mind.
I really wouldn't want my carefree childhood to be spoiled by somebody who just doesn't have enough commitment to work on his skills himself, or at least enough humility to recognize that the fault lies in his choices, and not in the education system.

Quoted for yeah hit him in the head man!

[Javarock]

If you had a time machine, and went back to enact a mandatory appreticeship for kids, then I'd have to dust off my time machine, and go back in time to give you a piece of my mind.
I really wouldn't want my carefree childhood to be spoiled by somebody who just doesn't have enough commitment to work on his skills himself, or at least enough humility to recognize that the fault lies in his choices, and not in the education system.

I would like to have the option of Apprentenceship starting at the end of Jr. High, It would benifit the person beacuse buy that time they -SHOULD- know there intrests and get a head start in life, But Figureing how the auther was dureing his childhood he wouldn't have joined.... Besides that point I can't appaly for post secondary classes untill latter in highschool, Thus not allowing me to learn programming or something about from a structed learning program untill Im almost on the last Leg, I guess untill then its my Programming book and me

Maniditory should not be implmented beacuse the point of it is for genral knowledge.... Specialaztions will stem from collage, Intrests anything really.... It all depends on a childs motivation. And besides pursue what you wanted or want right now wishing for the past to be changed is going to do nothing.

Also, This was not put in as offensive or any intent, I understand your reasoning and see where it is comeing from and it is understandable. Children do have a lack of motivation and manditory apprenticeships would help build skills.... But it also reminds me of a book called "The Giver"

[Itnetlolor]

Why would you even do that.

I mean, everything we do is basically us striving for mindless Hedonism, so why in Gods name would you want to ruin the mindless Hedonism we have already?

I think it's more in a manner of training oneself not to ruin it for everyone else, or something.

If it's about being work-trained and everything, why not look to what you enjoyed most in doing that you have any relative skill in; find a way to apply it to your future self, and work with it, or at least use it in a way to cope with adult life if it doesn't go exactly as planned. Kinda like I do with art. I enjoyed doing art, but making it more like work makes me less interested; an odd solution I use is that I separate my works. I'm not a fan of being professional, so if I need to be, you can identify it as such, but you can tell my other works as me just enjoying myself and going with the flow (half the time, my fun work is better than my professional work, and vice-versa).

Currently, I'm working on some ██████ art over time for ██████, and keeping that within it's professional means, but when I'm doing my own thing, it tends to either look crappy by comparison (see old Bloodfist plans), but more as either a concept being worked on, or some finer works which is just me elaborating on an idea for quite some time (like many of my weapon designs), whether it be used or not (like my other airship design, a bunch of other craft, some machines that hide in plain sight as part of scenery, or weapons which take Swiss Army Knife to 11 which I name the WFAO-Series (Weapons For All Occasions) which can contain up to 11 weapons in the same gun; or a reality-breaking pistol that looks and operates by the rule of cool)).

Of course, art-wise, I'm not a fan of criticism (and being professional), unless it's aimed at professional work and where it needs some improvement (especially if mass-producing or something). However, criticism on my fun personal works, I would tend to take offense towards; it has occurred a few times, and I tend to not have fear getting blood on my sketchbook.

Not to sound hedonistic, but life is meant to be enjoyed; it has taken me some time to finally get the message. my "missed childhood" would be all the times I took life (and comments) too seriously, and have been too nice to a fault. In a sense, developing at least some modest asshole behavior has loosened me up to be a better person, at least for myself to make up for the lost less-serious fun I could've had, and to also understand the oddball behavior people I knew (family included; those nuts) had. I dunno, just find an equilibrium you can work with, and build from that foundation, 'cause, that's the most stable thing I've seen in life these days.

Probably one of the best summaries I've come across has to be:

Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life. 
    ---Confucius   

[malimbar04]

I woke up and realized I hate myself for wasting my entire childhood. I have no significantly marketable nor appreciable skills save for what I gained from schooling.

What is the purpose of "childhood"? Looking at any other animal, "play" and "fun" is mostly training for and practicing things they'll have to do when they're adults, fighting and hunting and such. Modern times with humans, "fun" and "play" usually has almost nothing to do with adult life. I'm thinking of back in the day when social economic output wasn't high enough to sustain a large unemployed population. Early industrialization and prior when children were miniature adults training to be adults. Would I rather have a "childhood" under heavy responsibility as an apprentice for a dangerous job? No, living conditions were horrible, but it would have done a whole lot more for me. Sure there's "imaginative" play, building motor and coordination, honing social skills, and a bunch of other essential skills every human needs to function, but children aren't really "trained" for any significantly useful jobs anymore and the modern generations are being raised on fantasy worlds and trained to live in Skinner's boxes. At best, some become moderately proficient in useful technical computer skills, but uncomfortable truth: Some people really do completely piss away their lives and it's even easier than ever and it's practically encouraged.

I wish I could go back in a time machine, slap those stupid games and toys out of my hand and give myself some textbooks, certificates of deposit, and something skill based like a musical instrument or programming books or art supplies or anything really. It's only now I realize what a stupid stupid waste of time my childhood was with my stupid toys. Thank god for (mostly) mandatory education, else I'd probably an entirely useless individual.

We need mandatory apprenticeship starting at or just before kindergarten to make up for the completely worthless and mind-rotting modern forms of entertainment. I like the modern standard of living, but now I can really really appreciate the usefulness and future preparation that was old-world "childhood", before the childhood stage was idolized into the whole "protect the children from the horrors of adulthood" thing.

/rant

shouldn't this be in the Life Advice section? Anyways, with all your good thinking and interesting insights, there are a few small problems that I see that change the perspective quite a lot.

Play is always learning, learning can always be playing, and learning is always useful to society. However, apprenticeships are not always playing and not always learning. Often they can be quite boring, menial labor that the master just doesn't want to do. Also, apprenticeships can easily become useless with a new advance in technology. My father, for example, was a journeymen (below the master, above the apprentice) in the very lucritive trade of tools and dyes. They were the ones that made high quality equipment, and his entire field was replaced by machinery that could do his job easier.

Also, practicing for things we'll do as adults does not just mean hunting and other hunter/gatherer, agricultural, or industrial jobs. Practicing for things we'll do as adults includes things like being able to type and use a computer, understanding how to type letters and talk to people, learning how to exercise, or learning to analyze your thoughts and correct mistakes. So already

Mind-rotting entertainment is a waste of time I would admit though. Watching Jersey Shore should be a matter of embarrassment. Watching House, however, is semi-educational. Watching Mythbusters (or anything on the big learning channels) is even better.

But remember that we live on average 78 years or so (more if you make it past your childhood years). For the 1st 10 to 20 years, most people are idiots anyways. Then take into account how long it takes to learn enough to be useful to society from the level of an 8th grade education. It's practically no time at all (a couple of years, maybe). So even if you're in your 50's and you still work as a hamburger flipper at the same place you've worked since you were 15, there is still enough time to get an education, become useful to society, and possibly even start a new revolution or so. While there probably is a limit to human potential in a lifetime, I think I can safely say that it hasn't been reached yet, and it isn't likely to be reached in the next century or 20.

[Ø]

carefree childhood to be spoiled

Pssst. "Carefree childhood" is an idolized idea with some roots in romanticism (...and the eradication of child abuse...) but it's an abstract concept that's a total waste of practical time.

Not that you can't have "carefree" time at all. If I had spent more time in my childhood building useful skills, I would have more "carefree" time now. However, not all children are responsible enough to ration their time between amusement and actually practical stuff, hence there's a need for more mandatory practical time usage.

or at least enough humility to recognize that the fault lies in his choices, and not in the education system.

Oh I know the fault is mine. However, statistically, it seems the modern education system predisposes more people to having fewer practical skills than did the mandatory (though mandatory back when because you wanted to survive) apprenticeship system. I recognized my own fault before I realized the fault in the educational system.

shouldn't this be in the Life Advice section?

The only applicable thing is the first line. Which I'm going to remove because of that.

But remember that we live on average 78 years or so (more if you make it past your childhood years). For the 1st 10 to 20 years, most people are idiots anyways. Then take into account how long it takes to learn enough to be useful to society from the level of an 8th grade education. It's practically no time at all (a couple of years, maybe). So even if you're in your 50's and you still work as a hamburger flipper at the same place you've worked since you were 15, there is still enough time to get an education, become useful to society, and possibly even start a new revolution or so. While there probably is a limit to human potential in a lifetime, I think I can safely say that it hasn't been reached yet, and it isn't likely to be reached in the next century or 20.

Best response yet. My reply: Yes, I should live to play WoW until I'm over the hill and then panic and try to do something with myself. Non-satirically: It is of my differentiating opinion that self indulgence is not controlled well enough in society, regardless of time span. There is no such thing as time that should be wasted because you have so much of it.

[malimbar04]

carefree childhood to be spoiled

Pssst. "Carefree childhood" is an idolized idea with some roots in romanticism (...and the eradication of child abuse...) but it's and abstract concept that's a total waste of practical time.

Not that you can't have "carefree" time at all. If I had spent more time in my childhood building useful skills, I would have more "carefree" time now. However, not all children are responsible enough to ration their time between amusement and actually practical stuff, hence there's a need for more mandatory practical time usage.

I think you'll find that's not at all true. Test this by asking people who started to work from a young age, and then ask people who describe their childhood as carefree. Which ones spend more of their time working? They are the ones that have less care free time.

But remember that we live on average 78 years or so (more if you make it past your childhood years). For the 1st 10 to 20 years, most people are idiots anyways. Then take into account how long it takes to learn enough to be useful to society from the level of an 8th grade education. It's practically no time at all (a couple of years, maybe). So even if you're in your 50's and you still work as a hamburger flipper at the same place you've worked since you were 15, there is still enough time to get an education, become useful to society, and possibly even start a new revolution or so. While there probably is a limit to human potential in a lifetime, I think I can safely say that it hasn't been reached yet, and it isn't likely to be reached in the next century or 20.

Best response yet. My reply: Yes, I should live to play WoW until I'm over the hill and then panic and try to do something with myself. Non-satirically: It is of my differentiating opinion that self indulgence is not controlled well enough in society.

One extreme to the other? The point is that if you feel like your life isn't useful right now, you have the time to change that completely. There is no need (or good reason) to enforce early specialization and dumbing down of our children. If you think you've waisted your childhood, you are romanticizing what life would have been like if you worked your ass off as an apprentice. Apprenticeships don't make for smarter or harder working or more useful citizens, they only make for more specialized citizens.

[Ø]

Test this by asking people who started to work from a young age, and then ask people who describe their childhood as carefree. Which ones spend more of their time working? They are the ones that have less care free time.

Usually because they've gained a higher position up the ladder with more responsibilities because they had a head start. The people I personally know who mentored under their parent start out with both connections and more prior experience. I would gladly trade my free time now for more responsibilities for the pay.

One extreme to the other? The point is that if you feel like your life isn't useful right now, you have the time to change that completely.

Same extreme. Wasted time is wasted time. Young children aren't responsible enough to ration it, especially the way a "carefree" childhood is encouraged.

[FuzzyZergling]

I am of the opinion that it is impossible to waste time, as time is worthless outside of human experience.