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[madciol]

I mean, fire is the basis for most civilization

Dorfs do not have fire, too. At least not explicitly (one could assume kitchen have fire).

Then again, DF is a fantasy game.

Exactly. And in this setting, aquatic rare are not unhearded for, if rare.

Anyway, I'd consider it a terribly unfair (and boring) advantage if most enemies could not attack my fortress simply for being underwater.

I think this kind of civs would have appropiate enemies to attack or siege them. Yes, it would need to add many things (like generating interesting ocean bottom). And FPS. Oh Armok, FPS. You would have race that in practice fly (because entire embark tile is submerged in water, or at least significant lower part in case of shallow sea close to land). It would also change way to show tiles being underwater. And zilion other things.

Erm, one thing at a time could be good strategy. So add cuttlefish and other deep sea animals and monsters, even if you almost never see them, even on ocean-side forts.

[de5me7]

own up, who payed for hamsters.

what exactly is a hamster going to do in DF?

This is sort of how I feel about the deep sea creatures and songbirds on the list. It's cool and all, but when are we ever going to even see a cuttlefish?

But it's not my place to go telling people what to do with their money.

this is only an issue atm because we have very little interaction with the oceans. When we can go fishing and whale hunting (yaarr the white whale), and when we can play mermen characters in adventure mode the ocenas will be more relevent.

[abadidea]

I am excite. Makes me want to get around to that idea about the Pokemon mod 

[Thundercraft]

I mean, fire is the basis for most civilization

Dorfs do not have fire, too. At least not explicitly (one could assume kitchen have fire).

Technically, you are correct. However, it must be assumed that many workshops - including the Ashery, Kitchen, Still, Kiln, Smelter, Soap maker's workshop, and all types of Forges and Furnaces - use either fire or magma for heat. To do otherwise would require magic.

Then again, DF is a fantasy game.

Exactly. And in this setting, aquatic rare are not unhearded for, if rare.

In a fantasy setting like DF, perhaps. Fantasy tends to take a lot of liberties with logic and science. But I've read various hard science fiction stories which argues that the evolution of a sentient aquatic civilization is nearly impossible without being naturally amphibious - citing the lack of fire and the subsequent difficulty in development of tools beyond stone age level (rock, bone, and shell) as the primary reasons. And if they're an amphibious pre-industrial society, it seems only logical to have their primary cities on land for all the benefits it presents.

Anyway, I'd consider it a terribly unfair (and boring) advantage if most enemies could not attack my fortress simply for being underwater.

I think this kind of civs would have appropriate enemies to attack or siege them. Yes, it would need to add many things (like generating interesting ocean bottom). And FPS. Oh Armok, FPS. You would have race that in practice fly (because entire embark tile is submerged in water, or at least significant lower part in case of shallow sea close to land). It would also change way to show tiles being underwater. And zilion other things.

Yes. It sounds like Toady One would have to go out of his way in order to make the seas in DF playable for aquatic races - a lot of stuff above and beyond allowing building on the ocean floor and patch issues. Would there be a guarantee of enough large ocean critters for hunting to provide all food requirements, regardless of being randomly generated? If not, how would a playable aquatic race farm? Wouldn't that require the addition of a lot of edible aquatic plants? Yes, it would be a lot of work. And probably requires fixing many bugs and serious FPS issues before it could be seriously considered.

Erm, one thing at a time could be good strategy. So add cuttlefish and other deep sea animals and monsters, even if you almost never see them, even on ocean-side forts.

...this is only an issue atm because we have very little interaction with the oceans.

I agree. But the addition of a lot of dangerous deep sea animals would be more Fun and useful to dorf players if only dorfs could put out to sea in boats and ships. (I'm pining for pirates and viking-style warships... And ship "caravans".)

[darkflagrance]

I mean, fire is the basis for most civilization

Dorfs do not have fire, too. At least not explicitly (one could assume kitchen have fire).

Technically, you are correct. However, it must be assumed that many workshops - including the Ashery, Kitchen, Still, Kiln, Smelter, Soap maker's workshop, and all types of Forges and Furnaces - use either fire or magma for heat. To do otherwise would require magic.

Then again, DF is a fantasy game.

Exactly. And in this setting, aquatic rare are not unhearded for, if rare.

In a fantasy setting like DF, perhaps. Fantasy tends to take a lot of liberties with logic and science. But I've read various hard science fiction stories which argues that the evolution of a sentient aquatic civilization is nearly impossible without being naturally amphibious - citing the lack of fire and the subsequent difficulty in development of tools beyond stone age level (rock, bone, and shell) as the primary reasons. And if they're an amphibious pre-industrial society, it seems only logical to have their primary cities on land for all the benefits it presents.

Anyway, I'd consider it a terribly unfair (and boring) advantage if most enemies could not attack my fortress simply for being underwater.

I think this kind of civs would have appropriate enemies to attack or siege them. Yes, it would need to add many things (like generating interesting ocean bottom). And FPS. Oh Armok, FPS. You would have race that in practice fly (because entire embark tile is submerged in water, or at least significant lower part in case of shallow sea close to land). It would also change way to show tiles being underwater. And zilion other things.

Yes. It sounds like Toady One would have to go out of his way in order to make the seas in DF playable for aquatic races - a lot of stuff above and beyond allowing building on the ocean floor and patch issues. Would there be a guarantee of enough large ocean critters for hunting to provide all food requirements, regardless of being randomly generated? If not, how would a playable aquatic race farm? Wouldn't that require the addition of a lot of edible aquatic plants? Yes, it would be a lot of work. And probably requires fixing many bugs and serious FPS issues before it could be seriously considered.

Erm, one thing at a time could be good strategy. So add cuttlefish and other deep sea animals and monsters, even if you almost never see them, even on ocean-side forts.

...this is only an issue atm because we have very little interaction with the oceans.

I agree. But the addition of a lot of dangerous deep sea animals would be more Fun and useful to dorf players if only dorfs could put out to sea in boats and ships. (I'm pining for pirates and viking-style warships... And ship "caravans".)

The main thing preventing dwarves from building in water is something hard-coded that tells player-controlled characters to panic in deep water. Disabling that, or allowing a raw tag that alters that in the raws, would allow aquatic civs to be created by modders. Tags already exist to prevent aquatic stuff from living on land.

Allowing aquatic cities that don't cave in upon the entrance of an adventurer would be an entirely different matter.

[Levi]

Woo!  Moose made it in at number 7. 

[Sowelu]

Woo!  Moose made it in at number 7. 

I expect them to be the unicorns of neutral wilderness regions, in terms of raw viciousness.

The dwarven steam cart collides with the moose!
The dwarven steam cart explodes into shrapnel!
The moose blinks, shrugs and walks off.

[Ves]

Cowcatchers are an awfully Human idea. Dwarves would protect the fronts of their vehicles with a row of large serrated steel discs.

[Draco18s]

Cowcatchers are an awfully Human idea. Dwarves would protect the fronts of their vehicles with a row of large serrated steel discs.

Never tried running over a moose, have you?

[Qmarx]

I'm surprised crows are so high on the list, given the game already has red-wing blackbirds.  Beavers were lower than I expected.

Bees being in first place, though, is no surprise.

[Cruxador]

Cowcatchers are an awfully Human idea. Dwarves would protect the fronts of their vehicles with a row of large serrated steel discs.

That wouldn't work. An integral part of the function of a cow catcher is that it knocks the cow to the side. With serrated disks, the mass of the cow would still be dead on on the front of the vehicle, and it could still go under.

Cowcatchers are an awfully Human idea. Dwarves would protect the fronts of their vehicles with a row of large serrated steel discs.

Never tried running over a moose, have you?

That video's not really related. It's just some folks being dumb about a moose. No cow catchers in sight.

[Draco18s]

No cowcatcher -> Crashed vehicle.
Crashed vehicle -> Dead dwarf.

Although you'd probably still break the moose's legs.

[therahedwig]

Then again, DF is a fantasy game.

Exactly. And in this setting, aquatic rare are not unhearded for, if rare.

In a fantasy setting like DF, perhaps. Fantasy tends to take a lot of liberties with logic and science. But I've read various hard science fiction stories which argues that the evolution of a sentient aquatic civilization is nearly impossible without being naturally amphibious - citing the lack of fire and the subsequent difficulty in development of tools beyond stone age level (rock, bone, and shell) as the primary reasons. And if they're an amphibious pre-industrial society, it seems only logical to have their primary cities on land for all the benefits it presents.

Actually, fire isn't much of a basis for civilization, it's abillity to cook stuff however is something different. Cultures like ancient egypt are regarded to be succesful due to the farming industry making so much food that people didn't have to be a farmer if they wanted to survive.

Besides, who says that aquatic races can't make use of underwater vulcanism to work their metals? Also, underwater stones, like reefs don't suffer much from erosion, you can cut yourself without noticing. So obsidian sword like weaponry could be made easily.

Sure, there's stuff Aquatic people wouldn't be able to do, but I'd imagine they'd be able to hit ancient egypt levels of civilisation, and that's more than enough for a lot of people.

[MrWiggles]

The volcanic vents can't work, simply due to quenching techniques.

Then there is shaping metals as it cools, and casting would be nay impossible underwater.

The most that I can see an aquatic civilization achieving would be paliolitich (sp). With just using stone, & bone tools. I could buy them cooking their meals with volcanic vents. Cooked meats is one of the evolutionary stepping stones that allowed for brain to increase in size, as the stomach decreased in calorific needs.

Though one of the more important aspects of a neolithic farming community was that it allowed for specialization of labor, since there was a decrease demand on food gathers.  This though was also dependent on storing and preserving food. Which, I don't see working underwater at all.

The earliest methods for preserving foods, and meats was to cure them. How can you smoke, dry or salt foodstuff underwater?

An aquatic civilization would have to be amphibious. They would have to be land based for most of their activity.

[Areyar]

Or use magic underwater bubbles or something.

ps. don't forget shells as a crafting material, it can be pretty hard and sharp.
Aquatic ranged weaponry are also severely limited in their effectiveness due to drag.
Poison though,  could be one method of hunting that could prove more effective underwater than above.