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[Rooster]

I actually hate the friggin guts of carapace and quills.

They don't approach the maximum AV armor, which is crysteel shardmail at 8.
Carapace and quills have 6 each at maximum, and except extra utility uses, they suck to me.
They need 9 mutation points to max out (actually just 8 for maximum armor)
And then i'm stuck at an armor that has 2 points less than a friggin just-a-little-less-common item.
Id' rather spend those 9 mutation points gettin force walls (Which I also hate)
All the mutations that I ever like are either passive bonuses(regeneration,multiple arms,double muscled), and attack mutations.
I realise that some people are content with the next best thing, but I'm a min-maxer, I have a compulsory need to have the best build in the end, and if an item can be better than a huge point investment, then I'm not having any fun.
Only the carapace can thighten for a 12AV bonus, but then I can't move, which means I need to have way to work around this.

Even tho, there are plenty of mutations to never even use all of them for a long time, I still think there could be a couple more, and some should jump from being *useless* to *an ok alternative*

Weird fact: I cannot play a non-tinker. I take the necessary inteligence for all my characters. I don't know why.

[beorn080]

Carapace provides alternate protection though. You'd be hard pressed to find a piece of armor that has 50% heat and cold resists. Likewise, Quills SLAUGHTERS anything you get into melee range with.

[Rooster]

Plenty of things do.
A properly built character will kill anything without problem.
However, some enemies are ridiculous to kill.
For example the very last level of Bethesda susa, the crazy mechanist people temple.
Or some wildlife enemies.
And don't try getting into melee range with Mamon Souldrinker.
He's killable provided you are the marathon runner.

I'll try to test the damage output of quills and electrical discharge, as I never liked those things.

EDIT: Ok, so I'll try to give my thought on things nobody ever thinks about it seems.

By the end of bethesda susa your character will be at level 18-24 (never got farther than tomb of the eaters)
As a mutant You'll get about 20 mutation points, letting you to max 2 physical mutations at the cost of not taking any random mutations.
An esper will be able to buy 5 mutations, easily reaching levels of 5-7 with the ego bonuses.
at 24 the character will undergo 8 stat upgrades. 4 to all stats and 4 distributable points.
Every point of intelligence gives 4 skill points a level. True Men get +20 skill points.
By level 20 no character can hope for more than 2500 skill points.
The cost of buying every skill from a skill tree is usually about 1500 (with exceptions)
A character will roughly reach HP of 80-140 in 20 levels
No-one forces anyone to take ALL skills in a skill tree. The player needs to only meet the requirements. Bonecrusher without other worse skills in that skill tree is actually pretty cheap.

I hope it will help the min-maxers out there to better plan their characters.

There are some issues I'm having with this:
Ranged combat is skillpointwise exclusive to melee as you can't invest skillpoints in both effectively.
Ranged combat needs a way bigger atribute investment to be effective.
Ranged combat is not as flashy as one can hope it to be. There are no plasma miniguns, no bazookas ripping enemies apart.
Melee combat is just more convenient and more viable. I tried to make a min-maxed ranged character, and neither pistols nor bows & rifles were any better than simple mace to the face.
I can't hope to have a character of level higher than 25 because the dificulty of enemies doesn't scale globally, and I don't have any issue with enemies not respawning, but still killing snapjaws by level 25 is ridiculous. Providing more places to explore and kill level-appropriate monsters for all level ranges would be sweet.
Not all atributes are represented equally, hence willpower and ego are almost always dump stats, and nobody I've seen has bought thougness based skills, nor most of intelligence ones.

I hope my opinions helped somewhat

[Niveras]

I actually hate the friggin guts of carapace and quills.

They don't approach the maximum AV armor, which is crysteel shardmail at 8.
And then i'm stuck at an armor that has 2 points less than a friggin just-a-little-less-common item.

These arguments seem spurious. I never even knew crysteel shardmail existed, so I would definitely not call it a 'little less common' item. Being 6 AV at maxed is actually the best body armor I've ever found, the next best being 5 AV fullerune, which is also 90 drams weight, or carbine plate, which is 5AV/-5DV. (My most progressed character was a multi-armed photosynth with carapace - he completed all the quests until burning the plantation, which then warned that the next quest was NYI. I went to the deathlands and was promptly slaughtered by chrome pyramids, or whatever those things are called, and retired the character. Level 25. I admit I didn't explore much or delve deep into random underground lairs.)

Carapace and Quills are fine. A lot of the mutations have powerful effects and huge tradeoffs.

[Rooster]

Carapace and Quills are fine. A lot of the mutations have powerful effects and huge tradeoffs.

That is a good point you are making. And I guess it's not that imbalanced, since True Men need their cake and eat it too, and those plastic and metal armors need to be viable to them, compared to what a mutant can acheive.

However at 10 mutation points, armor mutations are just making me uneasy. I never, ever give up on mental mutations, instead of other way around. I often gave up on physical ones. The physical ones, have drawbacks, and are unaffected by stats. The mental ones aren't

I would actually like these mutations if they were affected by thoughness bonus.

[beorn080]

If physical mutations were affected by stats in the same way as mental, freezing hands, by itself, would be worth 8-9 points. It would be massively powerful.

[Soulwynd]

Maybe, but that wouldn't be very balanced.

Ego+Wil characters get all those bonuses because they're pretty much horrible to play as it is. They really need that.

[Rooster]

Are passive bonuses really worth the same value as 3-4 attack mutations?
Well, I don't like physical mutations, and I never had difficulty playing espers. I guess it's a matter of preference and leave it at that.
I would like to see at least a 'mutator chem autoinjector' that gives a random mutation,defect, or a mutation point. Would be pretty sweet.
Also, just now I found now that electrical generation is pretty good.
I summoned a slumberling.
Maxed out electricity did 65 damage to him, while maxed quills only 17.
Unless I plan on fighting hordes at the same time, I don't think more ammo offsets smaller damage.
It's only 4p so armored monsters are almost immune to quills

[Tarran]

They don't approach the maximum AV armor, which is crysteel shardmail at 8.

Actually, Carapace does reach 8 AV. Just tested it with the latest version.

And then i'm stuck at an armor that has 2 points less than a friggin just-a-little-less-common item.

"just-a-little-less-common"? Dude, I've personally never found crysteel shardmail before, so it's a little less common than "just-a-little-less-common".

Only the carapace can thighten for a 12AV bonus, but then I can't move, which means I need to have way to work around this.

You can use mental mutations while tightened. Grab disintegrate and blow everyone away.

[Magentawolf]

So, I'm at the temple of Bethesda Susa... and there's just so much loot laying around. I've never seen so much folded carbide in my life, but I simply can't carry it all! I want an upgraded recoiler-type-gadget that'll bring you back to where you /were/ after using it a second time.

Or maybe a recoiler where you can entire your current coordinates into..

[Tarran]

Just dump the crap in one or two piles (be sure to have a save to savescum to in case you crash; putting too much on a pile has the game crash) and grab everything from the pile before you recoil. You can recoil even while over-encumbered.

[unormal]

Just dump the crap in one or two piles (be sure to have a save to savescum to in case you crash; putting too much on a pile has the game crash) and grab everything from the pile before you recoil. You can recoil even while over-encumbered.

FYI, I think I fixed all the big pile crashes (which were actually rendering issues) last patch so if you see one in a newer build, let me know.

[Rooster]

I hate the bethesda susa gunslinger dude.
He drops 2 overloaded laser pistols.
He was very annoying.

[Magentawolf]

Just dump the crap in one or two piles (be sure to have a save to savescum to in case you crash; putting too much on a pile has the game crash) and grab everything from the pile before you recoil. You can recoil even while over-encumbered.

Yeah, that ended up being what I did; but now I still have to go through all of the upper levels again to explore what's beneath the shrine.

EDIT: Why does a shotgun shell require a tier 2 Pristine Electronics to tinker up? o.o;

I've also apparently found two different Speed Booster data disks in this save; one is light blue and requires Tinker II, the other is a darker blue and is only a Tinker I item.

[Rooster]

The name's the same, but a diferent stat boost to quickness.