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[Realmfighter]

It's annoying when people deny that there can be anything between absolutely ridiculous and perfect.  Something I would refer to as simply acceptable.

I find what we have now simply acceptable.

I just don't like it when people talk about metaphorical places where everything is better to use as an example as to why we are shit.

[Retro]

The only thing I will contribute before this thread goes down in flames: The goal of feminism is to create gender equality. The issue is that everybody on both sides of the gender fence seems to think it means establishing female superiority. If anyone is suggesting otherwise... they are by definition not talking about real feminism, only the popular (and incorrect) conception of feminism.

[Heron TSG]

Chivalry shouldn't be directed towards women; it should be directed only and always towards whoever you are courting.

This whole 'chivalry' thing has gotten me confused. Why only towards who you're courting? Why not everyone? That is more equal, and seems like a nice thing to do. I shall be chivalrous for the rest of the year, and report back to tell what happened.

On another note: on occasion I've been yelled at for holding a door for a group of women, even though I do the same thing for men. Politeness is rude it seems.

[Karlito]

What do you mean you want to be treated equally? Fine. *Punches out woman* What? I don't like you. You said you wanted to be treated equally. I punch out guys I don't like."

I'd think that anyone you punched would have good reason to be upset.

True, but I have a nasty temper. The point was, we're raised from babies that "it isn't OK to hit girls". Never once in my life have I been told "it isn't OK to hit boys".
...
All in all, I'd say women either need to drop the double standards, or get used to being treated worse than guys by guys. End of story.

I'll grant that there's a pretty clear double standard with regards to men hitting women vs. women hitting men, in fact, just today in psychology class we watched an episode of that "What Would You Do" show where they had actors pretending to physically abuse each other in a park. Passerby were fairly quick to step in and intervene when it was a man beating a woman, but no one stepped in when it was the other way around. However, it's not some organization of just women perpetrating these standards, it's everyone. Whether we like it or not, there are some ideas about gender roles pretty deeply engraved in our society.

At any rate, I'll usually hold the door open for any group of people if I get there first, and I generally try to no beat on anyone. It's worked out pretty well for me so far.

[nenjin]

This whole 'chivalry' thing has gotten me confused. Why only towards who you're courting? Why not everyone? That is more equal, and seems like a nice thing to do. I shall be chivalrous for the rest of the year, and report back to tell what happened.

Chivalry at its core is about courtly love, putting one woman, the queen, on a pedestal above all others. That means she gets "the best" treatment.

Of course the other part of chivalry is just being noble and good all around. They aren't mutually exclusive, but it definitely implies treating one person very special.

Anyways, on women hitting men....I'd be curious to know the actual visual involved. A larger man hitting a smaller woman, the woman probably falling down or covering herself defensively, I would react to that. A girl just slapping and punching a guy who is standing there....I'd leave that alone.

If a woman was over a guy, kicking him in the stomach and head and stuff, some real ghetto fighting, yeah I would get involved.

[Heron TSG]

Chivalry at its core is about courtly love, putting one woman, the queen, on a pedestal above all others. That means she gets "the best" treatment.

Of course the other part of chivalry is just being noble and good all around. They aren't mutually exclusive, but it definitely implies treating one person very special.

Okay, I'll make a list of what I'm supposed to do; shit's gonna get real now that EVERYONE is the 'chivalric target'.

• Treat everyone as rather special
• Be noble (elaborate?)
• Be good (elaborate?)

I need more specifics.

[Karlito]

A girl just slapping and punching a guy who is standing there....I'd leave that alone.

And if a guy was just slapping and punching a girl who is standing there?

[nenjin]

I need more specifics

Throw your coat over every mud puddle for any man, woman or child.

"Defend the honor" of anyone around you against the slightest insult. ("What's up with your hair today man, it looks fugly." "HOW DARE YE BESMIRCH THIS VIRTUOUS MAN'S HONOR!")

Take any task or responsibility given to you as a grave quest of the utmost importance. Everyone who gives you a quest is a noble person, and requires you to treat them as such. "Hey can you grab me that 3/8ths wrench?" "FORSOOTH MY LIEGE, I SHALL UNDERTAKE THIS MOST NOBLE DEED ON THY BEHALF, AND FOR THE GOOD OF ALL KINGDOMS!"

Look dashing whenever possible. Reference

Acquire a trusty steed, that you do not necessarily need to ride, but that needs to be present at all times, and is always referred to as "my trusty steed."

And if a guy was just slapping and punching a girl who is standing there?

It's all in the face. If she looks more outraged and pissed than afraid....I think they'll settle it. If her eyes are the size of china saucers and her mouth is hanging open as a dude wails on her.....yeah. Probably going to intervene. I've met couples who can hit each other and deal with it....I'm not saying that's good or anything. But not every fight is domestic violence. Most are, but not every fight.

[SalmonGod]

Let's be more specific. 

Girl cheats on guy.  Guy slaps girl when he finds out.  Acceptable?

Guy cheats on girl.  Girl slaps guy when she finds out.  Acceptable?

I bet lots of people would give opposite answers for these questions.

Of course, I think there are far worse issues than the double standard of hitting.  Emotional abuse and manipulation is very common, which can get very nasty and cause damages easily comparable to physical abuse until you get up in the realm of life-threatening battery.  There's also the issue of child custody, which is a real gem.

[Sowelu]

Girl cheats on guy.  Guy slaps girl when he finds out.  Acceptable?

Guy cheats on girl.  Girl slaps guy when she finds out.  Acceptable?

Define "Acceptable".  Is it ideal?  No.  Would I really complain if it happened?  Well, I'd say "C'mon, you didn't have to do that," but I'd certainly understand.  In both cases.

[SalmonGod]

Girl cheats on guy.  Guy slaps girl when he finds out.  Acceptable?

Guy cheats on girl.  Girl slaps guy when she finds out.  Acceptable?

Define "Acceptable".  Is it ideal?  No.  Would I really complain if it happened?  Well, I'd say "C'mon, you didn't have to do that," but I'd certainly understand.  In both cases.

*shrug*

This forum isn't composed of your average people, and seeing those questions directly side by side would auto-balance the emotional reaction for most.  So I don't expect to expose anyone's hidden sexism or anything.  I more meant it as think about how most people would answer, especially if you asked them one question first, recieve answer, then ask the other one.  I bet most would reply negatively to guy slapping girl, and then when you move on to girl slapping guy, you'd get an awkward pause.  Admittedly, I'm just describing my general perceptions right now.

[Karlito]

And if a guy was just slapping and punching a girl who is standing there?

It's all in the face. If she looks more outraged and pissed than afraid....I think they'll settle it. If her eyes are the size of china saucers and her mouth is hanging open as a dude wails on her.....yeah. Probably going to intervene. I've met couples who can hit each other and deal with it....I'm not saying that's good or anything. But not every fight is domestic violence. Most are, but not every fight.

And if his eyes are the size of china saucers and his mouth is hanging open as a guy wails on him? The point is keep everything in the situation the same, but reverse the genders of the abuser and abusee. How does that change things? I think I probably would be more likely to intervene in a guy-hitting-girl situation than the reverse; that's basically just what society has taught us and expects of us.

Here's the second part of the segment I referenced earlier.

[mainiac]

The reason why they always arrest the man in domestic disputes is that domestic abuse is still a huge problem in this country and it's very, very, very frequent for abused women to lie about it.  This is also the reason why people are more likely to intervene when a woman is being assaulted in public.  We know that there are plenty of abused women out there.

The problem with feminism is that everyone is too busy attacking strawman arguments to know what feminism actually is.  The zero tolerance policies that progressive areas have adopted towards abuse of women are not an overcompensation.  They are an overwhelming response to a very real and very persistent problem that needs to be taken seriously.

My dad once got arrested once in a "domestic dispute" despite being an incredibly gentle man.  He got over it and moved on with his life.  But millions of women are abused each year.  They are trapped in a situation that they can't take control of.  The police need to help those victims.  You can't push things too far, but realize that justice isn't a slippery sloppy, it's a matter of balancing competing concerns.  Who's in trouble here?  My dad who was out the next morning or a woman who remains trapped in an abusive relationship?

Anyone who thinks that the work of the feminists is done needs to actually read a little about what the feminists actually want.

[nenjin]

Here's the second part of the segment I referenced earlier.

#1 Would have gotten a reaction out of me.

#2 Would not have.

That's where I stopped. I'm going to rationalize by saying that the guy in 1 just looked more threatening than the woman in 2, and the woman in 1 looked way more scared than the guy in 2. The guy in 2 is pretty much exactly what I mean by "just sitting there." He looks like he's tolerating a temper tantrum from his especially large daughter. Now, if she'd gone with the trach choke hold like the guy in #1 had......that dude looked like he was the verge of serious violence. The woman in the second looked like she was in full on comic violence mode. Better actors may have gotten different reactions from me.

But I don't deny I have a bias. Got slapped by a woman once in a road rage incident, and I had the piece of mind not to hit her back. Lord am I glad I didn't do that, it would have gotten sooooo ugly. But it was kind of comical. First she pulled a pocket knife on me with a 1.5" blade. Then she slapped me. I think I would have been within my rights to do something about it. But you know, I was raised with the never hit women thing, so.

[mainiac]

Here's the second part of the segment I referenced earlier.

I was never remotely concerned for the guys safety.  The relationship looked dysfunctional but not abusive.  How would me adding myself into that situation had improved matters?  The girl on the other hand looked like she was being abused.  Add in the knowledge that there are a lot of abused girlfriends in the world and I can definitely see how it would make sense for a stranger to intervene.

Point of interest, if I decided that someone, man or woman, needed to be stopped, I would start the situation the same way, by talking to them.