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[Squanto]

Great, a thread that is bascially my suggestion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=92046.msg2571265#msg2571265) but more developed.. i support this (just as i supported my tread.)

[KharBevNor]

One thing that I'd like to point out, several people in this thread seem to be saying that the pommel serves some sort of deliberate offensive purpose, that it is serves some special purpose as a blunt weapon. Actually, the pommel is a counterweight to help bring the balance point of the sword away from its tip. So, making a pommel out of the heaviest possible thing wouldn't necessarily make much sense in the real world. That said, when the pommel was used aggressively, especially with hand-and-a-half swords, it would benefit from being heavy. The 'murder stroke' was delivered by turning the sword around and grasping it's blade with armoured gauntlets, though the cross-guard was also used. Which brings up a point; there should be different ways of gripping some weapons; large daggers for example. Dwarven spears also seem to be short spears (since they can be used with a shield) so they should have underhand and overhand grips too. There should also be some variance allowed in the designs of certain weapons; to go back to pommels, not all swords have pommels.

[OddTheTall]

I like the basic idea but I also agree with the people who say it could be too much micro-managing.

Speaking from my knowledge of Dark Age weapon construction, different weapons should take different amounts of metal - you would get many spear or handaxe heads for the same amount of metal as a sword blade. I expect you could get 30-40 arrowheads from a similar amount of metal (maybe more). Also, not all of them would really require weaponsmithing - arrowheads can be cast in large numbers and there are some swords with cast bronze hilt fittings (you'd get several of these out of a single bar).

A possible way around the extreme microing - for making arrows, have a system like this.
Blacksmith makes a 'stack of arrowheads' from 1 bar (this stack is 1 item)
Carpenter makes a 'stack of arrow shafts' from 1 log
Craftdwarf/bowyer picks up 'stack of arrowheads' and 'stack of arrow shafts' and makes 40 arrows.

Spears and handaxes would be similar - 'stack of spear/axeheads'(weaponsmith) + 'haft weapon' job(carpenter) = 4 spears/axes.
You don't need to be skilled to put heads on shafts - you just have to be patient.

Swords, however would be different - 1 'short/long/bastard sword blade'(weaponsmith) + 1 'sword hilt' (blacksmith/weaponsmith/metal crafter) = 1 short/long/bastard sword.
Probably would be reasonable to get 2 short sword blades from one bar and two or three hilts from a bar.

It would also be interesting to be able to trade weapon blades - Good sword blades are valuable trade goods.  In the dark Ages, Frankish sword blades were among the best available. Traders bought the blades from the maker and traded them to other smiths who, while they couldn't replicate the blades, were more than capable of fitting hilts.

[Murphy]

With such a system we might be able to create...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Locke]

I love the idea of being able to design your own weapons. I've always loved games with customization of your armies (galactic civs for example). Just to make it easy, add a weapon template UI. Design your weapon, give it a name, and build said weapon from the forge. Forge will build weapon to specs and gather materials needed. As far as the pommel goes.. who cares? In order to balance out the blade (idealy right at the crossguards) you use the right ammount of weight. If you make it out of wood? Gonna be a big pommel. Make it out of Plutonium? It's gonna be small. Same weight, different size.

[Mel_Vixen]

Well to minimize the micromanagment without losing the ability to make custom weapons could be templates. Df could give you some standad templates say for generic arrows, shortswords and what else your civ has. If you want your own weapons you create a new template that consist of the stuff you choose. Said template can then be used in the smiths or job.manages menus.

[Roraborialisforealis]

Well to minimize the micromanagment without losing the ability to make custom weapons could be templates. Df could give you some standad templates say for generic arrows, shortswords and what else your civ has. If you want your own weapons you create a new template that consist of the stuff you choose. Said template can then be used in the smiths or job.manages menus.

Ahh yes. People do regularly add stuff in soft coding, I would love to have that ability with these new features as well!

[Urist McCheeseMaker]

Well to minimize the micromanagment without losing the ability to make custom weapons could be templates. Df could give you some standad templates say for generic arrows, shortswords and what else your civ has. If you want your own weapons you create a new template that consist of the stuff you choose. Said template can then be used in the smiths or job.manages menus.

Kind of like the uniforms, then. But, you know, different. I like. Maybe add an ability to salvage weapons and ammo for parts, and a menu that shows how many of each template you could make. Maybe with some sort of planning function too, so you can optimize your order to get the maximum amount of weaponry and killing-tools out of a number of goods.

[Roraborialisforealis]

FUSION system?
Urist reviews his legendary arsenal: He has Girlish, the spiked electrium hammer, and Boyish picks, The Adamantine axe that is covered in obsidian engravings. He makes the Hairy, bloody, partner of death. A hammaxe of legendary stature.

[Terminutter]

Actually, the pommel is a counterweight to help bring the balance point of the sword away from its tip. So, making a pommel out of the heaviest possible thing wouldn't necessarily make much sense in the real world.

I'm sorry, but the pommel was only actually used as a counterweight in very late period swords, when there was significant progress being made on muskets and rifles - when a civilian would want a rapier or epeé, as opposed to a broadsword, and would fence - where a counterweight is desirable. For most of the time when swords were used, a counterweight is actually detrimental - you're clashing swords with an enemy. If you have a pommel designed as a counterweight, it's significantly easier for the enemy to knock your sword backwards. Thus, most swords had a pommel solely for grip, or for whacking the other guy on the arm / over the head or the like.

[Roraborialisforealis]

Actually, the pommel is a counterweight to help bring the balance point of the sword away from its tip. So, making a pommel out of the heaviest possible thing wouldn't necessarily make much sense in the real world.

I'm sorry, but the pommel was only actually used as a counterweight in very late period swords, when there was significant progress being made on muskets and rifles - when a civilian would want a rapier or epeé, as opposed to a broadsword, and would fence - where a counterweight is desirable. For most of the time when swords were used, a counterweight is actually detrimental - you're clashing swords with an enemy. If you have a pommel designed as a counterweight, it's significantly easier for the enemy to knock your sword backwards. Thus, most swords had a pommel solely for grip, or for whacking the other guy on the arm / over the head or the like.

A pommel that fights your hand is a bad pommel.

[Terminutter]

A pommel that fights your hand is a bad pommel.

A pommel that helps your enemy reverse the direction of your swing is a bad pommel.
Think about the physics of it. If the pommel acts as a counterweight, it is easier for the blade to be swung in both ways, or pushed in both ways. If you hit someone, and they block it with a shield, then push with the shield, the counterweight will move in the inverse direction, helping the shield move the sword towards you. Not to mention that most pommels were wood, bone and other light materials, as they were the same material as the handle. Obviously, that's not going  to coutner much. A metal blob on the base of your sword was not common, unless you're using a zwielhander, claymore, bastard sword or something.
This youtube user explains it better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szn6AHiQqto

[Starver]

There's normal inertia and the rotational variant to look at.  If you are capable of locking the rotation (due to a good grip with a strong hand) the enemy is fighting against the total sword's weight, to which the pommel contributes, when he strikes.  But with the weight distributed either side of your wrist-located fulcrum there's less effort for you to spin it than all that weight at one side (give or take the nature of the distribution).

Of course it complicates the matter of technique, but I'd rather it that way than no pommel giving weight meaning all the weight I have to resist an onslaught (or, in a stike itself, to resist deflection or full on deceleration through blocking) also needs to be swung.


But, it depends on the weapon, and the fighting style.  A lump of metal at the end of a shaft held only at the far end (possibly with a strap to allow some form of finesse) has its uses, much as does a quarter-staff has which is quick to 'whirl' and direct (if used with skill behind it) and has some oomph behind it despite not having the same enormous amount of intrinsic mass.  Nunchucks are either the best or worst of both worlds, depending on what practice you have (Youtube videos doubtless abound to demonstrate the various epic fails possible in this case!).

But I speak with only partial experience in the above, because I can't claim such broad-spectrum skills that I have experience with all the weaponry first-hand, but I know what others say about (and do with!) the kinds I claim no personal domain over.

[Agorp Stronden]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/Themes/core/images/smflogo.gif

Axe equals pole and wedge...

[Roraborialisforealis]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/Themes/core/images/smflogo.gif

Axe equals pole and wedge...

Your wedge is facing the wrong way!