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[Bohandas]

How else do you specify that your dwarves make arrow heads?  Why through numerous keypresses on the various workshops or through the manager.

The same way you do everything. Through numerous keypresses on the various workshops or through the manager. Compair this to building a ramp stack. This isn't going to be causing RSI.

Crafts exist as a trade item, yes, but arrow heads serve no purpose except to make arrows (so why not just skip strait to the arrow?)

To add complexity and therefor challenge to making arrows, and as making arrows would be part of the game, add complexity and challenge to the game.

I more-or-less agree with Draco18s, it seems unnecessarily complicated to make arrows this way. In fact, especially in the case of arrows. And ESPECIALLY especially under the currenty system of resource management, as the arrows would wind up using a disproportionate anount of resources to make (although, I suppose that the deafult stack size of arrowheads/shafts/fletchings could be set to a number higher than the current stack size for arrows)

I can, however, think of one (other) thing that would partially justify it, which is if used arrows that would currently be destroyed could be partially salvaged.

[Draco18s]

One. Very. Simple. Answer.

Because difficult is good.

Not all the time.

[Starver]

I like the idea of diverse multi-component weaponry.  But I can see the problem with production chains, i.e. getting a blacksmith with a sideline in swordsmithing[1] to make a blade of metal, get a carpenter/bonecrafter/metalcrafter to make a grip of wood/bone/metal, get someone else (or the swordsmith) to meld the two...

At least at the moment, we already have a mechanism that might be utilised.  Procedurally-generated items in the form of moodcrafts (albeit "base item"+[N*"decoration"]).  Also c.f. Obsidian Swords, if they're back to being stone'n'wood constructions.

So, sword has (if you'll excuse me for disregarding the original "Pommel" and "Blade" terminology):

• Hilt, potentially composed of:
  • Pommel: Something dense, probably metal but can incorporate a Large Gem, should be both distinctly decorated and useful in pummel attacks.
  • Grip: Whatever covers the 'short arm' of the cruciform sword-blank.  Generally a form of fabric (Whether Rope-Reed/etc or leather strapping, perhaps with a material like wood or bone or additional bit of metal around the blade-blank's handle-end), better quality has significance in allowing better handling
  • Guard: Generally metal, with many different styles (straight, cage- or basket-like, possibly even absent.  Decorative forms could abound in this element, with capabilities of forming an ostensibly 'straight' guard in the shape of a sea-serpent, possibly integrated prongs which could incur additional wounds in some attacks, or stylised jaws (as if the blade was a tongue) for something in-between decoration and actual combat usefulness.
  • Hands: One or two-handed grip.  Affects the fighting style.  Can be used in alternate fashion but with penalties (see the Blade 'Base' quality, though).
    
• Blade, in metal or any allowable alternative, with the following variable qualities
  • ForeEdge: Smooth, Serrated
  • RearEdge: Smooth, Serrated, Blunt (if not also on ForeEdge as well, but would be a pure bashing sword)
  • Curve: None, Scimital, Snakelike (if that can't be just considered a variant on double-serrated)
  • Base: I think this is termed a "ricasso" when left unsharpened for optional off-hand control at the blade-side of the cross-guard.  Might be unusable (or difficult to use) by a shield-holding wielder, but allow more accurate strikes by one with the other hand nominally free.
  • Tip: Room for more configuration, and might define some fancy fantasy swords (e.g. forked end, or even completely split down the full blade for those double-bladed items)
  • Decoration: Engraving is more useful than embedded gems.  While the Fuller, I think it's called, isn't technically an engraving feature (more a casting one), this groove down the flat edges (lightens the blade while retaining most of its strength, might also play a role in bodily fluid management) could be a feature here.
  • I'm going to add 'length' in here, but note that either the variance in this can change the nature of blade (according to race/physical dimensions of the user) from being classed (at least in effective use[3]) as dagger, short sword, long sword, etc, or the length is procedurally bound within certain ranges according to which blade-type has been requested.  Whichever, all choices of hilt should potentially be put on all choices of blade.  With obviously a few dumb combinations (two-handed daggers?), but then again they might be particularly effective in certain circumstances (tough-hided opponents?).

I think then either it's a totally random selection of qualities, or a basic degree player-guidance ("I want a scimitar made of platinum with a leather grip") from which reasonable permissible alternatives for the rest will normally flow (common/uncommon designations, perhaps according to cultural/civilisation norms, so that the style of the guard might be normally of a particular type... or not).  You could extend that possibly to fully dictated construction methods, if players relish the idea of creating a bunch of peculiar (in either sense of the word) weapons for their own fortress.  But it would be a single craftsdwarf gathering the metal bars, leather (or cloth) for the binding seeking out a gem of their/the player's choosing for the hilt if that's what's wanted, etc and making it in one job.

While the current multi-material construction gathers everything together while starting, there might be room for "sword blanks" to be an intermediate stage in the workshop process so that if any of the hilt materials gets irreplaceably forbidden before the main metal bar has ended its initial working-on stage then (rather than moody dwarfs going crazy) there's a half-way stage to continue onwards.  Which players could wish to exploit to separate out the process and put other workers on the job, if they prefer the multi-stage system.  But it'd probably just be simpler and to deal with as per current moodcrafting and keep them all 'raw' until they're all instantaneously consumed the moment the final product is produced.  (Still, it'd be nice to see what progress was being made by any manufacturer, rather than just knowing that (say) a carpenter was currently building a bed, but could be anywhere along the process from having just started to being just about to finish.  The complications of having visible intermediate steps might be too high a price to pay, but sometimes it would be nice to have some kind of progress indicator. )

It would be possible for less finely-tuned weapons to have their pommels decoratively embedded with a jewel by a gem-setter at a later date (might make it better, might make it worse... another reason to allow the likes of swordsmithing (or, for now, usage) skills to affect other craftsdwarfs improvement in their own particular material of speciality), and I imagine a Dwarf being particularly fond of a weapon could perhaps, in some future version of DF, request the resident engraver to add something relevant to the swordsdwarf's or sword's history to the decorations.  (Could 'ruin' another dwarf's masterpiece, but gives the swordsdwarf some more pride in the weapon and thus drive them towards greater glories...)


We don't currently have scabbards, in-game, but obviously if we ever do we'd need ones that fit the weapons.  Again, either select "I want N dagger/straight short sword/such-a-length scimitar/long-sword scabbards" in the appropriate orders, then a dwarf can have hands free for normal work (not currently an in-game issue, but could end up being) but be able to draw the weapon (better quality/better matched scabbards mean quicker reaction) when enemies need running through.  Or should they get to that stage, the dwarfs can go to the leatherworker/whoever and request a scabbard for their weapon.  Also belt-loops, staff or axe harnesses for the back, and even scabbards could be belt/side/back/leg/forearm-designed, the latter two being restricted to daggers (or 'dagger-like' items, depending on the wielder's scale).  Could even allow an all-rounder to strap an axe to his back, beneath his 'turtle-shell' shield, sheath daggers to his thighs, hang a short sword from his belt and carry them around and then according to enemy ("Military Tactics" being a useful skill to guide correct choices here) wield and unsheath the correct weapon(s) and other equipment for the job in hand.  Bearing in mind this might only apply to those who are Legendary in the various items, and would be an encumbrance or combat penalty to those under-trained to use or carry the various weapons.


Anyway, back away from swords, Hilt-Chain-<Something> combos (mere masses, spiked balls, slightly fantastic triple-headed axes, whatever), Hilt-Handle-<Whatevers> (for hammer-type weapons, axes or so on, according to the actual head of the weapon), Pole-<Head> (starting at spears, but with imagination there's more that can be done, like agricultural tools, noting that the pole allows versatile gripping at the expense of a dedicated grip-site), <Head1>-Shaft-<Head2> (could be something a bit more like Monk's Spade, or akin to a double-ended sword on a version with two grips), pure Chains (no attachment) and the likes of hilt-less Chain-Head combos (no grip, you either hold the chain or wrap it around various parts of one's own body) comparing with headless Hilt-Thong (bullwhip, although IRL augmented by a replaceable tip for damaging and/or 'cracking' duty) or Hilt-Multithong variant (cat'o'nine-tails).

What else is there?  Ah, of course, ranged-as-melee... Pure "Staff" weapons (just a Stave element, no normally defined grips or heads, but may have other qualities to it) would cover how I envisage Blowpipes and Longbows being used in melee (the former has strange mass/strength/cross-section relationships due to hollowness, the limb of the latter is basically a(n admittedly flexible, possibly fragile) staff although it's arguable if the chord/string/whatever it is could also be reliably weaponised in hand-to-hand (could be a 'necessary' decoration, or at least necessary when it comes to firing, so might require de-/re-stringing actions to convert).  Crossbows can still approximate the Hilt-Handle-Head structure of a componentised hammer (being Stock-Shaft-BowHead, instead).

Having separate ranged-use handling details within the range-possible item templates would mean one doesn't have to worry about the lack of definite "grip" elements in the melee-specific usage of a ranged weapon (in melee use, the longbow could be defined as held anywhere along its length, from end to end, if not by the string for fancy combat tricks), but makes sure the weapon can only be fired the way intended.  And could also allow ranged variant attacks for melee items.  Throwing daggers might even have qualities (and numbers, thanks to a dagger-belt variant on the scabbard theme) aiding their ranged use, and even swords, hammers, axes, etc (even socks and rocks?) could be thrown in a moment of desperation (legs failing from excessive bolt impacts and a cocky crossbowgoblin standing two tiles away too timid to come within mutual range for a melee battle but reloading for another shot).

I won't go into the various firearm possibilities, but should they be made Mod-possible, again, componentised they could have both default ranged and emergency melee uses accordingly, and could even express differences for flint-lock/match-lock/etc in their ignition plus a range of options regarding ammo loading, the possibility of rifling, multi-barrels, plug-style or non-obscuring bayonette fittings.  Way beyond the intended vanilla DF, I know, but would fit within the system for those that can directly utilise or analogue the whole possibilities of explosion-powered slug-throwers with the tools Toady gives us through the raws.  (If nothing else, the idea of a crossbow needing a bolt and having a certain structure could be converted to allow a "cartridge" (a form of ammunition created in a custom workshop reaction involving the obvious raw materials) to work similarly in a "shotgun"-style crossbow/blowpipe.  About the only thing that might yet be missing is the possibility of adding user-defined skills via Raws so it isn't a blowgunner/bowdwarf skill that's needed and improved in its use.

Oh, and I'm sure that incorrectly using various weaponry (or even correctly using it, but against many and/or thick-skinned opponents) should have a chance of damaging the weapon, but so far I don't think combat can affect anything other than clothing and armour (and bodily functions, of course, when neither of these suffice to remove the total damage potential from the attack).



Sorry, a lot of thoughts, there.  All I actually meant to say was "just one manufacturer could make such a composite item", but the very act of putting digits to keyboard brought the other ideas along for the ride.  Apologies for the wall of text, especially to anyone who have already given up reading this distance down some of my longer posts...


[1] I'm sort of a passive fan of skill-trees.  i.e. after attaining a degree of skills in blacksmithery (by whatever name) there's opportunities to drag up specific sub-sets of targetted skills based upin that, e.g. swordsmithing, (metal) barrel-making[2], armour-making  But don't get hung up over this side-remark, I'm just trying to explain my terminology.

[2] Albeit that product-type skills aren't linked to the materials, so a carpenter experienced in producing wooden barrels would also get barrel-making on top of his carpentry as he became a better cooper... wouldn't help him make decent metal barrels without getting some grounding in metalsmithing, but would be the same.

[3] Urist McGiantDwarf picks up short sword, but wields it like a dagger.

[Starver]

...and reading the ammo arguments, occurring while I was editing that monstrosity, I say the same about multi-component arrows/bolts as well.  One manufacturer could be capable of bringing together two or three different materials into one (bunch of) arrow(s).

Grab a Head material, plus a Shaft material, possibly add on Fletching material (or make it optional).  The relevant Fletcher (metal/wood/bonecrafting skills applying, but I still hold out hopes for additional specialisations in end-products where currently it is solely the materials being used) gets all of these, works away and produces an arrow or a bolt (or, rather, a stack of them) with its qualities dictated to by the skills, materials and any form-choices involved.

Different qualities and forms of each element making for ammo with different effectiveness in any given circumstance.  Possibly different effectivenesses in different situations.  Bodkin heads for (alleged!) armour-piercing, barbed ones for more damage against unarmoured, bullet-heads more useful for use in the ranges, and (perhaps) breakable hollow glass heads to convey syndrome-causing liquids into a foe (or dusts for air-born dispersal?) although our fletcher might need some alchemical experience for safe production/gathering and handling.  Maybe even flammable heads for fire-raising, if we can get our dorfs (and other races) more accomplished at the ignition/capture and control of naked flames.




Anyway, this is all Blue Rock Thinking.  Mumble mumble Paradigm Shift.  Mumble mumble Quantize Our Intellectual Assets.  Mumble mumble Increasing Shareholder Dividends.  Blah.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I think it might be cool.

This is a finely crafted steel battle axe. The axe head is finely crafted steel. On the axe head is etched an image of waves by Urist McWeaponsmith. The haft is exceptionally crafted oak. On the haft is carved an image of a plump helmet by Urist McWoodcrafter.

But for ammo it would be a waste of time. Arrows and bolts are produced en masse, making this kind of individual distinction  meaningless.

That's my opinion anyhow.

[King_of_the_weasels]

Blacksmith takes a metal and makes arrow heads.  Fletcher takes arrow heads and a log of wood and makes the arrows.  There customish arrows in two steps. *ignoring the bar making process and cutting down the tree.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Maybe I wasn't clear the first time.

A melee weapon is much more likely to hang around, and therefore benefits more from small individual touches as I described in my earlier post. Ammo is designed to be fired at the opponent and after that forgotten. If your militia commander uses a steel axe with a horse bone haft you'll remember it. You won't remember what his crossbow bolts are made of.

Having items made of multiple materials is I think a step in the right direction. As to the extra work, I'm not averse to it if it is within reason. I guess if you're the kind of person who enjoys making their own pearlash (without magma) you won't mind a system like this.

[King_of_the_weasels]

It's more to do with resources then flavor text.  A metal head on a wooden shaft flys better then an all metal arrow.  Or atleast I'm pretty sure they do.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

If making a bundle of metal ammo also required 1 wood log or 1 bone in the reaction, that would a simpler way of approximating reality I think.

In that case making a bundle of wooden or bone ammo would create ammo made entirely of that substance (which has basis in reality IIRC).

[King_of_the_weasels]

Isn't that what I said...?

Edit: oh wait, I see what you mean.  Yes that could work, I'd prefer a Fletcher skill though.  Then again I'd prefer a cooper one too.  But that's just me.

[Max White]

@Starver, I must thank you for what might have been the greatest reply I have ever been given. Some good points in there, and I feel obliged to go into detail on my opinion on each and every one, but it's like 11pm here, and I need sleep. I al greatful that you adressed multi operation weapon making for me in such a fine way though!

It's more to do with resources then flavor text.  A metal head on a wooden shaft flys better then an all metal arrow.  Or atleast I'm pretty sure they do.

Not only flavor, also phyiscs. Right now a silver bolt is the best type, because of its massive weight, and steel is a poorer choice. However, if both steel and solver bolts weighted about the same, due to them both being made mostly from wood, and the primary property you got was the edge from the arrow tip, because it held the attack rather then the shaft, then steel would ocne again become a better choice. Much more realistic.

[Urist McCheeseMaker]

AND you would get a bonus from using rare, tougher/lighter/special wood types.

[ohgoditburns]

N-n-n-necro!

I would love to have this in game as an optional element. Weapons would start out normal as produced at the blacksmith, but various crafters could add gemstone pommels (gem setter), ivory hilts (bonecarver), sword knots (clothier), grip (leatherworker), and guard (metalcrafter). Before modifications, the weapon would just be assumed to have baseline hilts, etc.

These additions wouldn't have any other effect than to increase the variety of weapon artifacts, increase the value of weapons, and be generally awesome.

[Urist McCheeseMaker]

The necro made me re-read my own post too.

Fancy part-based decorations would be quite neat. I'm sure Toady would do that at some point, too. It sounds right up his alley. But here's a thought: you remember the whole thing about sending armies or expeditions from your fort into the rest of the world? Having rare but useful materials out there would make expeditions and stuff even more tempting. It'd be a nice goal to work toward.

[Roraborialisforealis]

I think the special traits should be something the player has no control over, bar editing the raw's. The only factors that control variance would be blacksmith skill, and their general liking (A blacksmith who likes bronze, and spears is gonna make a really weird bronze spear.) Personally I wouldn't mind being able to break down weapons and put them together for the custom weapon concept, but odds are you would destroy every single component of the weapon breaking it down. Naturally 1/3 of everyone loves the random monsters this game produces that defy nature, so why not bastardized weaponry as well randomly. (As well as maybe, 1/10ths of weapon strange moods would make an entirely new weapon, and 1/2 would do something weird (You know. Other then spotting the grip with adamantine SPIKES).)

I feel that the raws are not detailed enough: Certainly there would be certain hilt combinations that several weapons could use, but there would be certain hilts that only a certain group of weapons would use to start off. So why not let weapon classes have a select number of local hilts unique to their file, with very clearly defined bonuses. A battle axe wouldn't use a bastard sword hit, and a sword would not have a metal rod extending from the grip in between the handle and the sword (UNLESS IT WAS MADE BY A CRAZY... That sword would have a really high force multiplier at least! and...... Very high stab penetration depth.) Then there would only need to be a few variations on all the components for masterpiece (rare, but a few would have 1 or 2. I would expect more mundane masterpieces) and legendary weapons. SO We don't get spiked adamantine grips (OR DO.) Gems embedded in blades, ETC.