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[Fenrir]

quote:Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>quoting a game of all things instead of looking up where the word they used came from</STRONG>

Yes, that was rather pathetic, but Wikipedia verifies what I said.
 

quote:Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>using naming scheme specific to The Hobbit as part of your reasoning</STRONG>

Tolkien popularized the use of the plural form "dwarves", so it is you that is using naming scheme specific to The Hobbit as part of your reasoning.
 

quote:Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>spellcheck for a fictional word</STRONG>

The spellchecker has no problem with "elf", which is just as fictional.
 

quote:Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>'Dwarves' is more appropriate for English. 'Dwarfs' makes you sound like an idiot.</STRONG>

Such a compelling argument...</sarcasm>

EDIT:

quote:Originally posted by Sappho:
<STRONG>Linguistically speaking, "dwarfs" is the correct English plural of dwarf. The only reason people tend to use "dwarves" is because Tolkien invented that spelling with his books, and they were so popular that it stuck.

In any case, I don't see how it matters where the dwarf originated. It always fascinates me that humans are so obsessed with the earliest version of something somehow being the most important, or accurate. That's not to say that I'm not guilty of it myself - I get angry when I see fabulous books, like the Lord of the Rings, turned into movies because they are never "right," even though the movies are good in their own way. It's just a tendency we have I suppose.

Still, it's strange. I think our dwarves are awesome, and I think the original dwarves were probably awesome too. I don't think either is more "accurate," though it can be interesting to note how the myth has evolved over time.
</STRONG>

Thank you Sappho! I think you see where I'm coming from. I'm looking at this from a historical perspective.

[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Fenrir ]

[sorbius]

yeah it's a good thing that your dorfs don't turn to stone in sunlight or every fort would end like this:

Dwarf one cancels dig: petrified
Dwarf two cancels dig: petrified
Dwarf three cancels store item stockpile: petrified
Dwarf four cancels store item stockpile: petrified
Dwarf five cancels hunt: petrified
Dwarf six cancels fish: petrified
Dwarf seven cancels store item stockpile: petrified

[axus]

I think Toady has established himself as the pre-eminent authority on dwarves  

[Red Jackard]

Look at the plural of nearly every other English word that normally ends in -lf and you'll find it changes to -lves, it is the natural order of things. YOU MUST BOW TO IT. PROSTRATE YOURSELF NOW.

[Sappho]

I am a linguist.  That's what I studied in college.  Dwarf does not end in -lf, it ends in -rf.  The correct plural according to English grammar rules is dwarfs.  Dwarves is commonly accepted and few would consider it "wrong," but it does not follow standard English grammar.

There may be a great many things that you know more about than me, friend, but linguistics is not one of them.  

In any case, as both are widely accepted, it doesn't really matter which you use.  So let's stop fighting over semantics and enjoy the fabulousness that is dwarf mythology.

[Red Jackard]

Aw man... doesn't that just take all the fun out of bickering about 'whose true power is more powerful and true.'

But alright.

......

PS. what about wharf? Is this just another British/American thing?

[ December 24, 2007: Message edited by: Red Jackard ]

[Keizo]

I can't give a source on this, but I once heard that the myth of dwarfs originated from sightings or interactions of neanderthals by the ancestors of nordic peoples. As I recall, neanderthals weren't completely extinct until maybe 10,000-20,000 years ago, which coincides with the beginning of our own complex civilization. Neanderthals were short, stocky, adapted for life in the ice age and therefore in cold climates and with primarily cave habitations, and could forge crude stone tools and heavy spears.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[Dreamer]

I thought Neanderthals were taller than us (and blonde).  I'm certainly no professional on the matter, though.

I've read that the idea of a dwarf came from the Middle East (Or somewhere near there), where the people were shorter, darker skinned, and very good craftsmen, as they had developped iron and steel before others had, or something like that.  Again, I'm no expert on the subject.

[Ixen-bay]

dwarfs is fundamentally correct perhaps because it is a verbal form, not necessarily the plural of the noun.  As for the plural of dwarf (n.) both dwarfs and dwarves are given as correct spellings in the OED.

-lf and -rf, both consisting of C[+liquid]f follow the same rules of thumb when it comes to english spelling.  Historically, this takes the form of post-liquid voicing (AKA partial assimilation).  The earlier spelling of dwarfs comes from a time prior (possibly) to this sound change. Its not limited to "-f" either. The standard plural of any word regularly ending in -r or -l may be spelled -rs or -ls but will almost always be pronounced -rz/-lz.  

In standard American English pronunciation the spellings dwarves and dwarfs should be pronounced the same, in any case.    

I had something else to say.  I forget.

[Bricktop]

quote:Yes, that was rather pathetic, but Wikipedia verifies what I said.

Can I just say that this had me laughing out loud. Really. wikipedia verifies what you said? Is that really the best you have? Really, that is pretty pathetic.

Anway, I have to say I like the idea of Tolkien's Dwarves. I'm not saying they are the 'best' mythology, just the one that I prefer. If some people prefer the Norse version then there we go. Yay them. Oh, and before I forget, from what people have said it sounds like the Eldar Scrolls Dwarfs were influenced by the Norse ones.

[Fenrir]

quote:Originally posted by Bricktop:
<STRONG>

Can I just say that this had me laughing out loud. Really. wikipedia verifies what you said? Is that really the best you have? Really, that is pretty pathetic.
</STRONG>

Ok, ok, so I need to do some research on that part. I don't put much stock in Wikipedia, but I thought everyone else did.

[Pathos]

Fact - It's spelt dwarves.

[Fenrir]

quote:Originally posted by Pathos:
<STRONG>Fact - It's spelt dwarves.</STRONG>

Oh yeah? What makes you come to this conclusion?

[Vengeful Donut]

I declare Terry Pratchet as the official authority on all things dwarf related.  

[HOTMACHINA]

"A dwarf is a short, stocky humanoid creature in Norse mythology as well as other Germanic mythologies, fairy tales, fantasy fiction and role-playing games.

The plural form dwarfs has been traced to the 17th century. The alternative plural dwarves has been recorded in the early 18th century, but was not generally accepted until used by philologist J. R. R. Tolkien in his fantasy novel The Hobbit. Neither spelling represents the regular phonetic development of the Old English plural dweorgas, namely dwarrows; rather, they descend from a new plural formed in Middle English from the singular stem. Similarly, the old inherited plural dwarrows acquired a singular dwarrow.[1] Although dwarrow has passed from the language, both dwarfs and dwarves are in current use. Many grammarians prefer dwarfs, many fantasists prefer dwarves. The form dwarfs is generally used for real people affected by dwarfism; the form dwarves is used for the mythical people described by Tolkien and others."null

So there you have it in a nutshell its dweorgas