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Author Topic: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful  (Read 1743 times)

DumbfoundedElf

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Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« on: December 15, 2010, 05:35:44 pm »

As we all know, Catapults are almost completely useless at it's current state.  But I'm wanting to try to do something to make it at least helpful for defensive measures, maybe even aggressive if it works correctly.

What I'm thinking is lining up catapult(s)  in a certain way so that they have a good chance to land in the area you want, or make it so that it is improbable for it to miss certain tiles. Heres one of my ideas:
Z-Level above
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
CCC..............V        x
CCC..............V        x
CCC............. V        x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Z-Level below
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
............................E.                           
............................E.
............................E.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                 
C=Catapult(all total to one, I'm guessing that's it's size(see last Paragraph))
x=Walls
.=floor
E=unsuspecting enemy
Empty space= Open Space

If I'm correct, the wall will stop it from continuing and make the rock fall down and strike the enemy.The only problem I see with this is that it only has a 1/3 of the chance if it hits the wall, and that's if it's on time

 Sadly, since I haven't been able to have fun with catapults yet(and wiki's down for me for some reason), I have some questions.  Can the Rock fall after hitting the wall, or will it simply disappear? Can it Possibly break the wall? Does the rock make an arc in the air or does it fly in one Z-level?

I have another idea, but I'm not wanting to share it at the moment, since it goes off of this ideal only with multiple ones to help the chances of hitting.
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Frelock

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 05:43:29 pm »

Your idea is good, and will work as you described.  The rocks will fall down after hitting the wall, they will not break (at least that's what used to happen in 40d, and I don't think anything has changed), and siege engines fire only on one z-level.  There's just one problem: the amount of damage done by falling objects.  I have a "prison" chamber which I deposit items into by dumping from about 5 z-levels above.  As far as I know, my prisoners have never been injured by falling objects.  I'm pretty sure that once an object starts falling, it won't do any significant damage.  I could be wrong, of course, but I think that's how it works.

But, in the words of Bill Nye: Don't take my word for it.  TRY IT!
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 05:49:21 pm »

Falling objects don't hurt creatures.

DumbfoundedElf

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 06:02:53 pm »

Well, that ruined my plans a bit.

So even if it has been falling X amount of levels, It won't count as hitting and type of creature?
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NewSheoth

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 06:06:22 pm »

Nah. However, it is very good at transporting stone quickly.
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o_O[WTFace]

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2010, 06:51:41 pm »

I have heard reports that falling creatures now take and deal damage when landing on other creatures, but I don't think falling items do anything. 

Catapaults do aim at enemies along their path of fire though.  If you lock goblins or whatever into a hallway with a catapult firing at them you will see broken bones and other blunt weapon injuries.  Overall its pretty worthless except for moving stone and training ballista operators.  With legendary operators and a *catapult* I once saw a goblin vomit and pass out but that's it. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 06:54:58 pm by o_O[WTFace] »
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Schmlok

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2010, 07:59:11 pm »

Think of it this way, catapults in DF are the equivalent of launching poo at your enemies.  Where else does it end up except in a single dump tile or an atom smasher. :)
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2010, 08:01:51 pm »

I'm going to build a catapult system where dwarves haul rock over to a stockpile next to the catapults, where the siege operators fire the rocks into a wall where they fall many z-levels down to the magma sea.

Namfuak

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2010, 08:17:38 pm »

As others have said, if the rock drops any z-levels it won't do damage.  But, one thing that has worked in the past for me is to make a "main" entrance and an "invader" entrance.  What you do is have the main, 3-tile entrance which can be sealed off easily with a bridge.  Then, you have a second entrance which is one tile wide with a catapult at the end (a few squares back from wherever the enemies will have a path to your fort).  Depending on what you want to do, you can use this in a variety of ways, like lining either side with a z-level of magma below so they dodge off and die, or possibly have some traps on the ground to expedite that.  Or, if it has walls on either side, it will make it much more likely for a catapult to hit something, and it is easy enough to have a bridge to seal off your fortress once the goblins get too close (or provide a nice chokepoint for your military to deal with them).
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NobodyPro

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2010, 10:52:04 pm »

You'd be better off investing the stone in floors. Drop a stone on an enemy and he's confused for a moment, drop a floor on an enemy and he's confused for life (however short that may be).
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Reese

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2010, 02:32:33 am »

fun fact: catapults and ballistae ignore fortifications and fortifications can support ramps (in 40d, anyway)


▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓···········································
▄▄▄++++++╬▲++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
o═╡++++++╬▲++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
▀▀▀++++++╬▲++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓···········································

or

▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓···········································
/▀▌++++++╬▲++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
»═►++++++╬▲++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
\▄▌++++++╬▲++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓···········································
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2010, 02:51:49 am »

I just did a quick test embark where I built a ballista, cheated in a variety of ballista bolts made of various materials, and fired them through a small meeting area full of pet dogs.

Results: "The flying blood thorn ballista arrow strikes The Stray Dog in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!"
Ballista bolts deal blunt damage, and wood/adamantine bolts suck. Silver bolts break bones well, and this is with untrained dwarves manning (dwarfing?) the ballista. Ballista bolts still strike multiple targets and smash through trees, as they did in 40d.

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2010, 03:43:29 am »

Just tested catapults using a similar method:

The spinning (granite) strikes The Peasant in the left foot, jamming the bone through the left ankle's muscle and shattering the left ankle's bone!

Siege engines currently appear useful if you are using them against an enemy siege, in lieu of some magma superweapon, while the siege group is still outside crossbow range.

If you had a hallway with channels on the sides, ballista bolts that hit the walls could fall a few z-levels and then be recovered to the stockpile, rather than being destroyed. If the end of the hall, just short of the ballista's max range, had a channeled pit as well, then I imagine 90%+ of all ballista bolts would be recycled. 

iyaerP

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 03:45:52 am »

I just did a quick test embark where I built a ballista, cheated in a variety of ballista bolts made of various materials, and fired them through a small meeting area full of pet dogs.

Results: "The flying blood thorn ballista arrow strikes The Stray Dog in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!"
Ballista bolts deal blunt damage, and wood/adamantine bolts suck.


No kidding. I have had wooden ballista bolts, launched from a perfect ballista by a legendary siege operator glance off of a goblin's leather skirt.
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Frogwarrior

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Re: Attempting Science: Making Catapults useful
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 03:50:40 am »

As others have said, if the rock drops any z-levels it won't do damage.  But, one thing that has worked in the past for me is to make a "main" entrance and an "invader" entrance.  What you do is have the main, 3-tile entrance which can be sealed off easily with a bridge.  Then, you have a second entrance which is one tile wide with a catapult at the end (a few squares back from wherever the enemies will have a path to your fort).  Depending on what you want to do, you can use this in a variety of ways, like lining either side with a z-level of magma below so they dodge off and die, or possibly have some traps on the ground to expedite that.  Or, if it has walls on either side, it will make it much more likely for a catapult to hit something, and it is easy enough to have a bridge to seal off your fortress once the goblins get too close (or provide a nice chokepoint for your military to deal with them).
A fun plan. An improvement would be to have the "invader entrance" be several long, winding corridors, back and forth, each of which is guarded by a siege engine.....
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