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[BuGGaTon]

I've tried reading the wiki and it didn't give me very good information on what I need to train my military.  Like other people I've been having problems training dorfs in anything other than Marksmanship (this I seem to be able to do ok...) so I've been considering building armies of just pure Shoota boyz! 

1) How retarded is this notion? 

2) I hear that you need a good trainer in order to make your regular military dorfs start getting experience in anything.  What skills does this trainer need?  Does he have to be the leader of the unit?  Can he train multiple units?  Does he only teach dwarves with the weapons that he can use?  (ie if your teacher is an axedorf will he only help other axedorfs or does a teacher teach anything?)

3) Will marksmen in a unit of melee warriors train both the marksman skills at an archery range AND their armour user/dodger skills?  Should marksmen be in their own unit?

Sorry to ask so many questions but none of these seem to be answered on the wiki. 

oh and 4)  I still don't understand that bloody crazy armour section.  Are they really saying that my dorfs can wear 7 helmets, 8 body pieces, 12 gloves, etc and is that beneficial/required for the defence of the realm?

[nomad_delta]

oh and 4)  I still don't understand that bloody crazy armour section.  Are they really saying that my dorfs can wear 7 helmets, 8 body pieces, 12 gloves, etc and is that beneficial/required for the defence of the realm?

I hope someone knows/answers this 'cause I wanna know too.  I really don't understand how or why it's possible to wear multiple pieces of armor on the same body part, and whether it's a good idea to do so.

For example, is it possible to wear these together as a set?

Leather armor + steel chainmail shirt + steel breastplate

...and if it is possible, does it offer any better protection than simply wearing the steel breastplate alone?  Are there any penalties to movement or fatigue or dodging or anything else from wearing "too much" armor? 

Or, more simply -- what's the "ideal" armor set, if there is one?

--nomad_delta

[Kon]

oh and 4)  I still don't understand that bloody crazy armour section.  Are they really saying that my dorfs can wear 7 helmets, 8 body pieces, 12 gloves, etc and is that beneficial/required for the defence of the realm?

I hope someone knows/answers this 'cause I wanna know too.  I really don't understand how or why it's possible to wear multiple pieces of armor on the same body part, and whether it's a good idea to do so.

For example, is it possible to wear these together as a set?

Leather armor + steel chainmail shirt + steel breastplate

...and if it is possible, does it offer any better protection than simply wearing the steel breastplate alone?  Are there any penalties to movement or fatigue or dodging or anything else from wearing "too much" armor? 

Or, more simply -- what's the "ideal" armor set, if there is one?

--nomad_delta

See:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Armor

[schussel]

oh and 4)  I still don't understand that bloody crazy armour section.  Are they really saying that my dorfs can wear 7 helmets, 8 body pieces, 12 gloves, etc and is that beneficial/required for the defence of the realm?

I hope someone knows/answers this 'cause I wanna know too.  I really don't understand how or why it's possible to wear multiple pieces of armor on the same body part, and whether it's a good idea to do so.

For example, is it possible to wear these together as a set?

Leather armor + steel chainmail shirt + steel breastplate

...and if it is possible, does it offer any better protection than simply wearing the steel breastplate alone?  Are there any penalties to movement or fatigue or dodging or anything else from wearing "too much" armor? 

Or, more simply -- what's the "ideal" armor set, if there is one?

--nomad_delta

well any attack needs to bypass each layer ..

so it does offer more protection ..  if you read about that in the wiki about armor (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Armor) there is a good guide for building the most effective armor combination ... just exchange dresses with robes depending of your civ (as those are interchangeable and sometimes not present to be build by your civ)

beware .. a steel full clad layer + full equipped leather layers may render any armor user above lvl 10 proficiency almost invincible

[celem]

OP:
1) Just ranged can work well if your guys are any good.  exception might be large inorganics, maybe mb/fb style thing so always useful to have a melee backup.

2)Sparring gives good training and doesnt seem to use any skills.  Demonstrations can give teaching under the right circumstances.  it appears to cap out round mid-levels from other posts here.

Teacher needs teaching, organisation and a skill to teach.  the higher these 3 are the better he teaches, proportion appears unknown.
Student needs student and concentration.  maybe focus stat?

the whole thing is a little mysterious but theres been a few tests done embarking with tailored teachers with favorable results.
teachers sometimes teach stuff they suck at......seems unavoidable.

3)i usually have marksdwarves in own unit for logistics when giving them orders...i.e. i know that squad are all ranged.
In order to use an archery range you must assign the squad to train there through q,t.  However they also need to be assigned a barracks before they actually use it.  If set to train at both they hang out in the barracks according to the number required by the schedule and any spares eat/drink/sleep/shoot at range.
While in the barracks theyll train the usual combat range and hammerdwarf for crossbow melee

my metal uniform is:
Helm, Leather Cap, Leather Hood
Mail Shirt, Breastplate, Leather Cloak
Leather Mittens, Gauntlets
Greaves
High Boots

[nomad_delta]

See:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Armor

Have you actually read that wiki page?  I have, several times, and it still doesn't make any sense and doesn't actually answer any of my questions.

... unless you mean that list at the end where it says to use the following for "upper body", for example:

Upper Body
1 x breastplate
3 x mail shirts
6 x cloaks

Is that legit?  It seems a little ridiculous (and ought to be physically impossible) for my dwarves to be walking around actually wearing all that stuff.  Shouldn't there be some penalty for having so much weight/layers?

[celem]

basically look for the [shaped] tag.  only one of those per body piece.  theres some kind of size value too with a maximum cap but ive not really dug into it since finding a workable setup

also, no you cant do leather armour, mail, breastplate.  second two work together, not tried other combos

[schussel]

See:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Armor

Have you actually read that wiki page?  I have, several times, and it still doesn't make any sense and doesn't actually answer any of my questions.

... unless you mean that list at the end where it says to use the following for "upper body", for example:

Upper Body
1 x breastplate
3 x mail shirts
6 x cloaks

Is that legit?  It seems a little ridiculous (and ought to be physically impossible) for my dwarves to be walking around actually wearing all that stuff.  Shouldn't there be some penalty for having so much weight/layers?

its quite legit .. in fact in history multiple layers of  clothing was advised to soldiers that could afford it   (say around medieval times)

and well its extremely effective too ... but taking ages to pickup equipment aslong you dont precollect em in special stockpiles ... and even then

[ShinWalks]

oh and 4)  I still don't understand that bloody crazy armour section.  Are they really saying that my dorfs can wear 7 helmets, 8 body pieces, 12 gloves, etc and is that beneficial/required for the defence of the realm?

I hope someone knows/answers this 'cause I wanna know too.  I really don't understand how or why it's possible to wear multiple pieces of armor on the same body part, and whether it's a good idea to do so.

For example, is it possible to wear these together as a set?

Leather armor + steel chainmail shirt + steel breastplate

...and if it is possible, does it offer any better protection than simply wearing the steel breastplate alone?  Are there any penalties to movement or fatigue or dodging or anything else from wearing "too much" armor? 

Or, more simply -- what's the "ideal" armor set, if there is one?

--nomad_delta

Going through like this for the rest of the body (most of it is simpler) gives you a final setup of;

Head
2 x caps
1 x helm
6 x hood

Upper Body
1 x breastplate
3 x mail shirts
6 x cloaks
Upper Body (cheap)
6 x dress
3 x robe
3 x cloak

Lower Body
2 x trousers
1 x greaves
Lower Body (cheap)
2 x trousers
1 x leggings

Hands
1 x pairs of gauntlets
1 x pairs of mittens
Hands (cheap)
2 x pairs of gloves
1 x pairs of mittens

Feet
1 x pairs of socks
1 x pairs of high boots
Feet (cheap)
1 x pairs of socks
1 x pairs of shoes

That list represents the best possible suit of armor that can be worn according to the current size rules. Every additional piece does provide additional protection, though the marginal benefit from a second piece of the same material covering the same body part is rather slight. In answer to your specific question, it is possible and desirable to equip both a breastplate and a mail shirt because the plate armor only covers the torso, whereas the mail shirt also covers the arms. It is not possible to wear both a mail shirt and leather armor" because of their sizes.

The weight of the full armor described in the article is still not enough to significantly encumber a dwarf, so don't sweat it. They can haul bins full of rock blocks around; metal armor they barely notice.

[nomad_delta]

Thanks for the info guys -- I'd read the wiki but didn't believe it 'cause I thought it was crazy having one dwarf wearing six hoods and six cloaks and all that.  Sure they can carry the *weight* but the sheer volume of all those layers seems like it should restrict their movements such that they can barely walk, much less swing an axe.

I wonder if Toady will consider revising the armor system to be a little more believable.

[BuGGaTon]

Thanks for all the answers chaps.  I have a few more questions to bore people with.

1) Do marksdwarves suffer penalties from heavy armour?

2) Do marksdwarves really need the armor user and dodger skills given they'll be at long range mostly?

3) Should I bother equipping my melee jobbies with more than 1 type of weapon?  If not, which weapon?

[schussel]

Thanks for all the answers chaps.  I have a few more questions to bore people with.

1) Do marksdwarves suffer penalties from heavy armour?

2) Do marksdwarves really need the armor user and dodger skills given they'll be at long range mostly?

3) Should I bother equipping my melee jobbies with more than 1 type of weapon?  If not, which weapon?

answers in random order :>

3) well each legendary rank gives a big atribute boost .. + weapons have different fields of usage .. as axes and swords are fine to splatter weak armored enemies and hack limbs off .. warhammers and maces damage heavy armored foes to the max (esp usefull on those pesky bronze colossi) and spears .. well they are fine to pierce organs in big enemies

2) imagine an open field battle when the marksmen run out of  arrows or a nother siege squad attacks from the flanks (happens sometimes) .. as melee is bound most likely marksmen would be in a bad shape

1) its possible to clad em in metal too .. never found a pro or contra to it other than above fact

[sdrawkcabcM tsirU]

Well, heavier armor will result in them moving slightly slower (although I believe armor training can decrease this penalty). However, because I have not yet seen a marksdwarf that will actually attempt to run away when fighting in melee or move to better cover when fired upon, moving more quickly isn't much of an advantage for them, other than possibly firing a little faster.

Also, marksdwarves only have piercing damage, so I think anything that can't bleed to death or die from organ damage will pretty much just laugh at you unless you have some other sources of damage, be they traps or more dwarf-based.

[schussel]

Well, heavier armor will result in them moving slightly slower (although I believe armor training can decrease this penalty). However, because I have not yet seen a marksdwarf that will actually attempt to run away when fighting in melee or move to better cover when fired upon, moving more quickly isn't much of an advantage for them, other than possibly firing a little faster.

Also, marksdwarves only have piercing damage, so I think anything that can't bleed to death or die from organ damage will pretty much just laugh at you unless you have some other sources of damage, be they traps or more dwarf-based.

unless they got out of ammo or the target moves adjacent then there's a lot of hammering punishment no matter the ammo

that'S why alotta amries that are purely marksmen are consisting of hammer lords very soon if you dont let em train very long at the range or have plenty to shot prisonerwise

[celem]

its also why you should sub out wooden/bone bows for iron/steel when you can.