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[Cthulhu]

My hands do cramp faster on a controller, but that doesn't change the fact that some games aren't as good with keyboard and mouse.

[ein]

I grew up with a joystick and a keyboard.
Switching to controllers was amazingly awkward, but I quickly got used to it.
Now I'm pretty much comfortable with anything.

[Cthulhu]

Joystick is the only one I'm not comfortable with.  I end up having a death-grip on it and my hands cramp in a few minutes.

[Cheese]

They did for a while. No clue if the newer stuff still does, but it's a pretty common FPS option.

Anyway, mild curiosity is kinda' peaked. What do the folks here think, when they think "dead?" Are we talking complete and total lack of any development, AAA-mainstream or otherwise, at all -- even to the point stuff like DF and roguelike-level development no longer exists? Simply a lack of continued growth? Th'end of large scale (AAA, etc.) development for the system? Th'actual ceasing of personal computers entirely as a system? What level of dead are we talking here?

I think 'dead' generally means cessation of development of AAA titles for the PC. What language are Xbox 360 games developed in? It's always confused me as to why they can't develop games in C++ then implement controls for both PC and 360, then release them on both.


@ Controller discussion:It's kind of game dependent isn't it? Games on consoles are usually more action based. I play alot of games on PC where I only have to press something maybe 100 times an hour and involve waiting for periods of time.

[DJ]

You haven't played Diablo?

Oh, and I bet Starcraft with it's APM can give a good run for it's money to any console game.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

I also think the console versus PC thing is fucking stupid and should be left alone.
I play PC and console games pretty much equally.  I would never dream of playing an RTS on my PS3, or a FPS on my PC.  In my personal experiences, each does different things better than the other.  Arguing over which is better is pointless and idiotic.

Why would you want to play a FPS on a console rather than PC?

Uniform server experience, easier to play friends in a face to face set up. Depending on how you go about yer multiplayer, easier time playing with friends across the net. Xbox invite system is quite smashing for bringing in friends either in the game you are playing or the very next one. Less trouble shooting too. (This one kinda of goes in with uniform server experience.)

I agree, that a mouse and keyboard set up is a superior input model for FPS, but I only see that as mattering when you're playing in a competition, and only if you playing cross platform. (Which I'm pretty sure does not happen in any official capacity.)

If your in a competition, and its via console then the aiming nudge is a none factor, as its equal for all sides. There are still noticeable skill differences between console FPS players.

An aside, Halo: Reach aiming nudge is very noticeable, and forceful. Its been the cause lowering my K/D ratio for more then one game. 8/

In my years of playing FPS on both consoles and PC, I've had a /much/ better playing experience via the console then the PC. The ill repute reputation of console vocalization, is an exaggeration. Its not that common, and most games offer a mute button for those few/rare individuals. Whereas I've experience grieving far more often on PCs, dick mods, crappy servers and arbitrary undeclared server rules. (One that I can remember clearly pissing my off some ten years ago in a Counter-Strike game, was that you randomly became a hapless low HP chicken for the rest of the round.)

These issues can go away once you find some good servers, but for myself this seems to fight against my casual nature toward the FPS games in particular. I generally play them to more or less have something to do, or keep myself occupied as I listen to a book on mp3.

Please don't take this as a herp da dur console iz better. Its just my antidote as to why I prefer FPS on consoles over PC.
----
Another aside:
How does this sound for a t-shirt?

You have a K/D ratio only a mother could love.

In my experience the complaints about console gamers with mics are most certainly not an exaggeration.  I play MW2 and AC:B multiplayer on the PS3 and I pretty much have to mute every single person in a game using a mic because all they do is babble inanely about real life or shout trash talk, or mumble something completely incomprehensible... or just make random noises.  MW 2 at least makes it very convenient to mute them but ACB is terrible about this.  As far as I can tell the only chance to mute someone is during the short break between two rounds of a team based game mode and I have yet to encounter a mic user who I could actually understand.

As for controllers, I personally have no problem using controllers but the fact is that they're simply a more simplistic mechanism than the Keyboard and Mouse and/or Joystick/Wheel and that means they can't handle complex games anywhere near as well.  I mean, just look at the interface in the last three games on Bethesda's engine.  They all have the same clunky console style interface with the three tabs and then several subtabs in each and 8 quick keys.  In the Fallouts you need to hold reload to holster your weapon and hold the menu button to turn on your light, and you only get 7 quickslots since one of them is taken up by the ammo switch button.  From a console standpoint this seems like a perfectly reasonable interface, but for the PC version it's clearly designed for a severely limited control scheme.  I mean you can't even open your inventory with the "I" key.  And forget any sort of sorting or organization.

So I guess what I'm saying is, console controllers work great for games with a very simplistic control scheme.

[Graven]

I wish I could add something to the discussion, I really do.

But it's such a monolithically stupid discussion I'm afraid I couldn't, ever. I mean, why is it even going on? PC gaming is not dying, console gaming is not dying (though they really do need to update their consoles, that hardware is getting antique), none of them is going away. Consoles are easier to play on and offer a uniform experience (I hear some people like that, but then some people like self-mutilation, who am I to judge... just kidding ). PC offers better graphics, better controls, games that can generally be modified in various ways and tons of free indie games. Each gets various exclusive games and even genres.

Neither can replace the other without losing its own advantages, so what's the point of arguing, dammit?

[Googolplexed]

I think 'dead' generally means cessation of development of AAA titles for the PC. What language are Xbox 360 games developed in? It's always confused me as to why they can't develop games in C++ then implement controls for both PC and 360, then release them on both.

360 games are C/C++
You can't expect C code using external library/drivers to run anywhere though
Theres also the issue of optimization, and the fact that alot of companies don't really care about it for the PC

But it's such a monolithically stupid discussion I'm afraid I couldn't, ever. I mean, why is it even going on? PC gaming is not dying, console gaming is not dying (though they really do need to update their consoles, that hardware is getting antique), none of them is going away. Consoles are easier to play on and offer a uniform experience (I hear some people like that, but then some people like self-mutilation, who am I to judge... just kidding ). PC offers better graphics, better controls, games that can generally be modified in various ways and tons of free indie games. Each gets various exclusive games and even genres.

I'm not arguing that PC gaming is dieing
However more and more games seem to be made for consoles and ported to PC as an afterthought

[DJ]

I've spent days playing War Gods (an ancient fighting game) against a friend on a PC, using two gamepads

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

I wish I could add something to the discussion, I really do.

But it's such a monolithically stupid discussion I'm afraid I couldn't, ever. I mean, why is it even going on? PC gaming is not dying, console gaming is not dying (though they really do need to update their consoles, that hardware is getting antique), none of them is going away. Consoles are easier to play on and offer a uniform experience (I hear some people like that, but then some people like self-mutilation, who am I to judge... just kidding ). PC offers better graphics, better controls, games that can generally be modified in various ways and tons of free indie games. Each gets various exclusive games and even genres.

Neither can replace the other without losing its own advantages, so what's the point of arguing, dammit?

Well I think the idea is that Console games are significantly more popular to the point where true PC games are very rare from anyone but Indie devs.  Pretty much all PC games from big devs these days are console ports.  So it's understandable that some might take that as a reason to jump to the conclusion that PC gaming itself is somehow dead or dying.  But this has all already been discussed and explained earlier in the thread I'm sure.

[Graven]

I'm not arguing that PC gaming is dieing
However more and more games seem to be made for consoles and ported to PC as an afterthought

Again, because it's easier and PC hardware, even if a few years old, is still powerful enough to run even shittily optimized console ports without choking. That, coincidentally, is the same reason it's quite possible to make CryEngine v2 to look much, much better than the newer v3.

Kittencuddler - yes, but in that case why are people still arguing about joysticks and gamepads? Even consoles can use keyboards, not to mention you could stick whatever the hell you made up in your workshop in a USB slot and be safely certain it would work? And besides, I'm pretty sure Blizzard have been doing... let's say "not poorly", while still being a PC only company.

[Googolplexed]

Not really, its VERY trival to make code that runs terribly
speaking from the viewpoint of somebody with a programming background, if a game uses alot of "tricks" used on specific hardware, then moving it to a different platform can be a nightmare
in addition, PCs require testing of all different configurations and setups, whereas the console does not.

Making stuff always run well on the PC is trickier then it sounds.

The PS3 is basically a 6-8 core machine, using a different architecture, porting from that would be terrible
The 360... meh its fairly similar, but you still have to take into account the different OS's, setups, hardware.

Not to mention that with a keyboard+mouse, the user interface to the game might seem quite terrible if it uses gamepad conventions

[lordcooper]

I wouldn't say PC games can have better graphics than consoles.

FF XIII is still the prettiest game I've seen.  It'll be beaten by a PC game at some point, but then we get the next generation of consoles, and the next Square-enix game.

Shogun 2: Total War comes pretty close though.

[Urist McMalaclypse]

Just what I think, but I've seen more decent titles for PC than on consoles in the last year or so. Could just be cyclical stuff, but I very much doubt that PC gaming is going away anytime soon. While it doesn't 'just run' the way console games will, the ability to modify existing games, as well as the lower barriers for amateur programmers to create games, throw enough games out there that there are a few gems here and there. Granted, there's a lot more crap to dig through, but I feel it's worth it if we wind up with even one good game for it.

The other factor is the 'perpetual beta' lots of PC games tend to fall into. DF, for example, has been in alpha for years. A lot of the time, this just means that you're paying to do QA for the game if you buy too early. On the flip side, however, the lack of a fixed medium like a blu-ray disc also allows for a longer development cycle. In other words, because you can download the game at any time, the game's maker doesn't need to scramble to finalize the game before he/she goes broke. DF is a fine example of this: using the traditional console model, Toady would have had to finish and polish everything before it could be released.

One final consideration is that the PC can be much more multi-purpose than consoles, and also doesn't have issues with platform-specific games (you can't run Halo on a PS3, but you can run Steam on any computer with decent hardware). Modern consoles are definitely becoming more versatile, but there's still a tremendous gap there. Due to this, someone who doesn't game much would likely have a (possibly crappy) PC on hand anyways, but would have to actively go out and buy a console system.

I don't know that consoles are going away, and there is some interesting innovation going on with regards to that front, but I'm sure that PC gaming is going to be with us for a while yet.

[Graven]

What I was trying to say was, basically, that it's much easier to make a console-focused game and port it to the PC rather than otherwise. Besides, with PCs you gotta make sure the game is interesting enough for people to actually buy as opposed to pirate, dick around for 5 minutes, denounce as shit and move on. Yes, the xbox has pirated games and everyone I know who has one uses only them, but then again - I live in Buttsex, Eastern Europe and an average salary here is 300 euro per month.

 And no, I'm pretty sure the cell architecture is one core unit and six bullshit units as opposed to a true 8-core unit. The point is, even if a console's hardware is pretty well optimized for the purpose of playing it's still significantly slower than PC hardware as old as 3 generations ago.

But in general I agree, it's hard to make a well-running game on the PC... that's why most ports don't bother.

And Lord... I won't bother to reply, really. If you do believe that... my condolences

Edit : Actually I will bother to reply, cuz I'm somewhat pissed in general, and considering a polite reply makes me calmer

PC gaming is, unfortunately, defined by console gaming. Everyone is trying to get on the console market cuz there's more cash there. And creating games with graphics the far more widespread consoles can't run is bad for business. And since I'm yet to see a corporation dedicated to something other than maximized profits - it becomes the norm.

And for consideration - cryengine 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZR5IvXGMts