1. why did you think MBP was town. Please justify your calling MBP town, with details.
Because his
first post of the game was essentially a Kook claim (or possibly Alien), even if not direct. I didn't (still don't) think that he'd make such a claim, especially so early as scum.
2. Why didn't you even consider the "null tell" position? The question made the clear distinction of scum, town, or "null tell" (to be assessed based on other criteria). You saw this, and still called him town. Why not null tell?
I did. But there are only 2/11 scum (plus the distinct possibility of Aliens), so it's statistically likely that at least some people will end up looking scummy without actually being scummy. Continuing the answer the (1), I thought it unlikely enough to put MBP in the town category for the time being.
3. Re: my calling MBP scummy: If you think my logic is faulty when calling him scummy, please point out why/how.
I disagreed with it. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was wrong.
Your original case was that his waffling about claiming Kook was scummy (it was, but he essentially claimed it or Alien in the first post) and that he hasn't done anything else (he really hand't, but at least he'd done more than Org/ToonyMan/probably Jokerman-EXE at that point).
Later you have more about waffling, arguments about role versus alignment (Kook is one of the very few, possibly the only, non-Alien role variants that can only have one alignment), modwrath (I agree with you), more on useless.
You even say yourself (in the second linked post) "
Sure, not an overwhelming case, but just as strong as that on the other top contenders".
4. Why did you take small snippets of questions from the linked posts, specifically the ones with questions you had already answered, and focused on those instead of the intended restated unanswered questions? I find your evasion massively scummy, since you a) know better, and b) intentionally skipped the questions in the post to which you replied.
You have long posts, some I probably just missed. The rest I either didn't think were important or had already been answered. Obviously you and I disagree on that point.
5. You also say "while there were far scummier targets." What targets? Please list them out. Who was scummier than MBP at the time yesterday? You evidently think Arg was, so as I ask above, compare your Arg case to my MBP case, and see if you can honestly say "far scummier targets" were there. Or was it someone else? If so, why didn't you vote them?
Org, essentially unlynchable. ToonyMan, hoping he'd turn around and be useful. Leafsnail and Jokerman-EXE, lurking but they always do that.
6. Now you think MBP is "scummy," but your case against him is as flimsy as the one on Arg, your "post lists" are worse than useless (they may be useful for you, but they mean nothing to us when you attempt to present them as "evidence"). Please summarise and restate your case.
He is scummy, for essentially the same reasons that you thought he was earlier. I think he's scummy because he's less experienced, not necessarily because he's scum. As I've said before.
Useless? I obviously disagree, but useless?
]url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72923.msg1841448#msg1841448"]Link to "post lists"[/url]. Each comment unless it specifically states otherwise is something that I think is scummy.
Useless RV questions are scummy, albeit minorly. Modwrath for roleclaiming is trying to cover a previous mistake. Extension after enough votes is both not paying close enough attention to the game (actually a minor towntell IMO, unfortunately for the state of the game) but is also a way to buy good will with townies that wanted the extension. Bringing up the 'saved investigation' is backtracking to cover himself again, unvote without revoting is scummy as he can just 'forget' to revote without much issue. Dragging on the Kook business--especially to the extent he did--is tunneling.
7. You "almost guaranteed MBP wouldn't be guarded, and decent chance of being NK'd". Several people seem[ed] to think [MBP] is town, so why wouldn't them guard him if they can? Wouldn't you guard someone you think is town? And were he town, why would he get nightkilled? The WIFOM is useful for the scum, and it's not like he's is an asset.
He's town, but has a worthless role and hasn't been active enough to make a strong town center. Why would people guard him? I would probably guard someone that is town, but I wouldn't have guarded him. Nightkilled was probably more than expected. You're quite correct, the scum would probably leave him alive both for the Kooky-WIFOM bits and because he's not that dangerous to them.
Your case on Arg was bullshit. Let me summarise:
8. Distracting: if he was doing that instead of content, I'd see it. Otherwise it's a non sequitur, and it's your job not to be distracted. Do you think he was actively and intentionally trying to distract us away from seeing suspicious things by posting a head-explode picture in response to an Org comment? how is "distracting" is a scumtell (while also posting content)?
Minor issue. Probably even more minor that I made it out to be.
9. "Easy Lynches" I want specific answers to your clearly spurious and fallacious comments about how Arg went for "easy lynches". Jumping onto a bandwagon or otherwise getting a free lynch is indeed scummy, but he's not done that; he decided MBP was his target, and he committed to it, even when it was no longer an easy lynch. He was then still voting the same way than when you said he went for the easy lynches. Was he still scummy for it?
"
clearly spurious and fallacious comments"? Dude, you've got a clear case of politician's tounge / begging the question.
MBP, I'll give you that he stuck to his guns on that one.
Dariush is just begging to be lynched, has been since Day 1 although it's getting worse. Easy Lynch.
His last choice was Org/Toony. Everyone had Org/Toony on their list. Saying Org was an Easy Lynch was completely wrong, more accurate would be Easy Target To Say Is Scummy. But that's a lot of words. More or less the same for ToonyMan at that point.
10. "Lynch the kook": if it was just for the kook thing, maybe. But the dude is also scummy, and he points it out, yet you completely ignore this. Why?
Because I disagreed with how scummy you and he thought MBP was. See answer (1).
11. your analysis of him is loaded on the early game. You include more about his RV, Enchanter choice for an answer, or early exchanges with Org/Toony than about his most recent exchanges where he provides more content and context. Why?
Because that's where he looked scummiest, ergo what came up when I was trying to decide if he was scummy.
(I think there are two reasons for this:
- You first decided to vote him, and then set off to find "justifications" for it, starting from the beginning. You latched on whatever low-hanging fruit you found. Oh, look, a youtube link! Shiny!
- It's easier to attack people if you ignore their responses.)
To the first, it's mostly true. It's all I had time for. Didn't get time to do a full read until the beginning of Day 2.
So far as ignoring their responses, if you're talking about responding to your questions, see question (4). If you mean Argembarger, I did. When he asked me to expand on them
here, I did
here. He responds with his
crazy orange post (crazy modifying orange, not post), I respond
here. He seems to agree with many of them
here, with another question I answer
here.
Most of the points that I dropped I agreed with him on, looking back I didn't make that clear.
12. Refute this: Your arguments [were] still way insufficient for a fourth on bandwagon vote, you ignored the most important parts of the situation, you ignored several of my earlier questions, and your "list" is completely made up after the fact to justify your jumping onto the bandwagon instead of an analysis and cause for a vote.
This is contained in the other questions, why I wanted you to make a list in the first place.
Insufficient arguments: I disagree, see answers to (
, (9), and (10).
Ignored the important parts: Which were? Talking with Argembarger about the situation (11), what else did I ignore.
Made up list: No. Not made up. Went back and looked for it after the vote, but I didn't make it up.
13. Answer the freaking questions: why did you lynch Arg based on a bullshit case?
I lynched Argembarger? By myself? What about Leafsnail, Toaster, and ToonyMan. Of the four, it could be argued that I had the least to do with lynching him as I was the 4th (turns out unneccsary) vote. And see the previous answers for the bullshit case claim.
Re:
A misread on someone causing an accidental mislynch is one thing. A case based on bullshit and made up reasons, with clearly fabricated lists of "evidence", about which you refuse to answer questions, on the other hand, is the work of scum. You are scum.
What about this (spoiler), this, and this to a minor extent? I get the feeling that you're just completely ignoring my spoilers... Would you rather I just not use than and wall of text whenever I post?
14. Your linked answers do not address the points about your case being bullshit; So why did you link them? Why evade the questions for the then third, now fourth time?
The bolded question was
about which you refuse to answer questions. I answered questions. The bullshit case
was explained in the linked posts, at least more or less to Argembarger's satisfaction (the
fair enough post).
For the third, now fourth time *
I didn't evade them the first time*.
Re: One last, not that important, but telling because I've seen you use it a few times already:
Mostly through talking with him at the end of the day started to change my mind. But I've learned not to change my vote that near the end of the day without a *really* good reason (you saw it happen to Zathras in the first Sorcerer's Apprentice), so I stuck with it.
Bullshit. a) you never gave any impression of mind changing, on the contrary; b) a town mislynch is a *really* good reason; and c) your simile doesn't apply: that was mylo, this was D1; that was a decisive vote, yours wasn't; hell if you weren't sure, you would have unvoted and he'd have hung anyway. But no, you wanted to hang him, confident that you'd be able to talk yourself out of it D2. And you nearly had, but we'll nail you now.
a) Answered in (11).
b) A combination of he would have had to be very town contrasting with someone very scummy to get me to change my vote.
c) It's not just a simile for Mafia, it's for life. Unless you have a *
damn* good reason to do otherwise, go with your first answer. It's more than likely to be more correct than a changed answer.
I didn't think this would be such a big deal on Day 2. Believe me, I don't want to have to talk my way out of things, does all sorts of unpleasant things to my head. But I'm not just going to give the scum the satisfaction of a free lynch because I screwed up.
15. Why do you bring this up when the case does not apply at all? If you were having second thoughts, why didn't you even acknowledge them instead of insisting? If he'd have hanged even if you unvoted, why didn't you unvote if your mind was changing? Bullshit, all this is made up after the fact, a spurious justification for scummy behaviour.
Why do you repeat your questions?
a) It does. It applies any time you second guess yourself.
b) Answer to question (11) for the third time.
c) 11th hour vote change, wouldn't have helped if I had, was AFK for the last few hours anyways. Why would I unvote?
d) Question (11b).
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