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[Dariush]

Argembarger, so you voted MBP not because he claimed Kook, but because he claimed Kook on D1 before being investigated, the agent getting the dopp result and nobody believing his claim? You make too much out of nothing. We have to wait at least until D2 to see the night's results.

Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Also, how is the fact that there's only two scum leads to probability that he is Kook? 

The best bet for 2 scum is to lie low and not attract any attention to yourself (including for the lying low). With a Kook claim, I can almost guarantee that MBP won't get guarded, has a decent chance of being nightkilled, and/or will probably get inspected by a Telepath / role inspection.

Uhm, but isn't it better for a dopp not to claim Kook in this case, as 1) if he gets guarded, that's one less guard for the dopps to worry about 2) the one who claimed Kook will NEVER be NKed so dopps will keep up the suspicion until the end 3) not all dopps have a 'kill' goal. Uhm, only vanilla townies can become Kooks or any human?

[Argembarger]

I'm actually (unfortunately) heading out soon and there's a good chance that I won't be back before 5:00

In case I am unable to post again before the end of the day,

Goddamn Lurkers, it's Monday, where are you? I expect you all to post retroactive thoughts on everyone, including me. Try not to lie.

Zathras, I must admit I've actually gotten concerned that you're buddying me. Do you have anything to say about that?

MBP, please, if you aren't scum, make yourself useful tomorrow. If you are scum, damn damn double damn.

Dariush, your infatuation with Jim has been scummy scumbucket behavior. Even if you really think Jim is scum, you need evidence, man.

Toony, I find your reasons for initially voting for me pretty terrible and/or nonexistent, and I think you've been cruising along, happy with the bandwagon and happy to not really make much of an effort to justify your vote. I think you are scum.

A coin toss implies a 50/50 chance. Are you saying that they're 50/50 town/scum if claimed as early as they say?

Kind of...

That's pretty close to what I meant. Except I meant the 50/50 chance to represent what someone thinks of them, not their true alignment.

As in, if you had to make a judgement about them and weren't able to just say "I don't know", you might as well flip a coin to decide what you think.


PPE:
@Dariush,
what... huh??

I have no idea what you are saying/implying.

The answer is probably in one of the many posts I have made on the subject, though.

[Zathras]

Things that have bugged me about Argembarger:

May be small things, all taken together are the problem.

Sorta like grains of sand on the beach? (said the guy with the rainbow-waxed monkey on the sig, but whatever).

I read your responses, and you failed to address several important points:
- Please justify your calling MBP town, with details. If you think my logic is faulty when calling him scummy, please point out why/how. Why didn't you even consider the "null tell" position?
- In that vein, I'm interested in you contrasting your case against Arg with my case against MBP. We seem to have seen similar levels of scumminess on our respective targets, and for similar reasons, yet we read them differently.

Also, how is the fact that there's only two scum leads to probability that he is Kook? 

The best bet for 2 scum is to lie low and not attract any attention to yourself (including for the lying low). With a Kook claim, I can almost guarantee that MBP won't get guarded, has a decent chance of being nightkilled, and/or will probably get inspected by a Telepath / role inspection.

Bollocks. Several people seem to think he's town, so why wouldn't them guard him if they can? Wouldn't you guard someone you think is town? And were he town, why would he get nightkilled? The WIFOM is useful for the scum, and it's not like he's is an asset. On the rest, "best bet" is not "only way", and telepaths & detectives will miss most dopps; sure, he'll probably be targeted by them, but it will probably not be conclusive. You know all this, so I question whether you said the above in good faith.




Your case on Arg is bullshit. Let me summarise:
- Distracting: if he was doing that instead of content, I'd see it. Otherwise it's a non sequitur, and it's your job not to be distracted. Or do you think he was actively and intentionally trying to distract us away from seeing suspicious things by posting a head-explode picture in response to an Org comment? Where you distracting us by your earlier "mostly joking" thing about how lynching the spore spreader was worth it?
- Gone for easy lynches: bullshit. I rebutted this in my last, but you conveniently ignored it. Jumping onto a bandwagon or otherwise getting a free lynch is indeed scummy, but he's not done that; he decided MBP was his target, and he committed to it, even when it was no longer an easy lynch. He's still voting the same way than when you said he went for the easy lynches. Is he still scummy for it?
- "Lynch the kook": if it was just for the kook thing, maybe. But the dude is also scummy, and he points it out, yet you completely ignore this. MBP has just as many or more scummy acts than you have on Arg, so I question whether your vote is on good faith or not.


However, I notice that your analysis of him is loaded on the early game. You include more about his RV, Enchanter choice for an answer, or early exchanges with Org/Toony than about his most recent exchanges where he provides more content and context. I think there are two reasons for this:
- You first decided to vote him, and then set off to find "justifications" for it, starting from the beginning. You latched on whatever low-hanging fruit you found. Oh, look, a youtube link! Shiny!
- It's easier to attack people if you ignore their responses.


No. I ironically think you are scum for the reason you say he is: going for an easy lynch. The difference is I'm being sincere. Your arguments are still way insufficient for a fourth on bandwagon vote, you ignore the most important parts of the situation, you ignored several of my earlier questions, and your "list" is completely made up after the fact to justify your jumping onto the bandwagon instead of an analysis and cause for a vote. You, JanusTwoface, are scum.


PPE: Argembarger, please don't use Orange. Mephansteras reserves that colour for Mod announcements. Also:

Zathras, I must admit I've actually gotten concerned that you're buddying me. Do you have anything to say about that?

It's good that you consider it. I'm not intentionally buddying you, but I think you are town, and I'm trying to prevent a mislynch. I also (clearly) consider MBP scum, so some agreement is inevitable, but agreement is not buddying. Finally, Janus's spurious vote on you revealed previously unseen scumminess from him, so I must attack him for it, which I can't do without dismantling his argument, which in turn has the side effect of defending you.

[ToonyMan]

Toony, I find your reasons for initially voting for me pretty terrible and/or nonexistent, and I think you've been cruising along, happy with the bandwagon and happy to not really make much of an effort to justify your vote. I think you are scum.

I still disagree with your reasoning, doesn't help that you keep trying to defend it.

[Argembarger]

@Zathras

...Huh, it's funny what kind of clues one can miss when one is focused on countering points.

I'm walking out now, I hope I can be back before 5 but like I said earlier, I doubt it.

I also doubt that I will survive today, I will consider it a small miracle if I do.

However, I can rest easy knowing that I helped stir up plenty of scum.

I'll be following this game very closely, it should prove exciting.

Good luck, town!

PPE:
Toony, so you would prefer I didn't attempt to defend my reasoning?

Noted.

[Dariush]

Toony, I find your reasons for initially voting for me pretty terrible and/or nonexistent, and I think you've been cruising along, happy with the bandwagon and happy to not really make much of an effort to justify your vote. I think you are scum.

I still disagree with your reasoning, doesn't help that you keep trying to defend it.

So, he shouldn't defend his reasons? 
PPE:
Ninja'd.

[ToonyMan]

There is your fatal flaw.

Change your reasoning.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Also, how is the fact that there's only two scum leads to probability that he is Kook? 

The best bet for 2 scum is to lie low and not attract any attention to yourself (including for the lying low). With a Kook claim, I can almost guarantee that MBP won't get guarded, has a decent chance of being nightkilled, and/or will probably get inspected by a Telepath / role inspection.

Uhm, but isn't it better for a dopp not to claim Kook in this case, as 1) if he gets guarded, that's one less guard for the dopps to worry about 2) the one who claimed Kook will NEVER be NKed so dopps will keep up the suspicion until the end 3) not all dopps have a 'kill' goal. Uhm, only vanilla townies can become Kooks or any human?

Oh God, the WIFOM! It buuuuuuurns!

Brief thoughts before I have to run out the door:

Everyone: Thanks for pointing out that I was gone. Way to look like you were paying attention.

MBP: Kook claim? Seems a bit suspicious, but I've had the same situation where I'm a Kook and I don't know whether or not to claim. I don't feel comfortable using that as the only reason to lynch himypu, however my interest is piqued and I'll be watching you closely. Your posts have been surprisingly long and filled with content, but the arguments against you are stacking up and you appear to be sweating.

Argembarger: In my readthrough, it appeared that you were only going after MBP for his Kook claim. However, you posted this analysis that I found to be very convincingly written. However, a problem remains: your vote grew out of his Kook claim, and was evolved over time; a classic scum move, to vote over something small and then find ways to go back and turn it into a big thing. You haven't shown meritable interest in anyone else, really, unless I missed it; who are your other picks?

JTF: That's a nice list of posts there. It's kind of suspicious that you would simply post that at first, like that's going to be enough for this crowd. You're usually so verbose and willing to share your thoughts. Still, you followed it with a nice explanation, so I'll let that go for now.

It's kind of hard to look like I'm not parroting with this post, because I've been out for so long, so when people give replies to me I'll be better able to get into it. I'm still looking to place my vote, so I'll be back before 5 (probably) to place my vote.

[Toaster]

Jim:

You requested more reasoning on the Argem vote:  He's been a little too happy to post nonsense in lieu of contributing.  I realize that there are other offenders here (Toony and Org), but his determination to see MBP hang for claiming Kook bugs me.

Okay, but how does that compare to Argembarger's scum play?

In Paranormal 17 if his attack met with resistance he gave it up after a while. He's in the lead for votes now and he still isn't giving it up. This determination is unlike him when he's scum.

He also lost that game.  I don't recall many games with him, so AFAIK, he is still learning.  Perhaps he learned that backing off attacks got him attention, and is trying something else?


Zathras:  My read on Leafsnail?

Mysteriousbluepuppet.

Tell me your alignment.  I strongly recommend that you don't lie.

Unvote.  Jokerman-EXE.  Why such a long answer to a simple question?  Please tell the truth.

If you take a step back you'll realize all this "attention" is caused by other people.  Under that barrage of five questions you just hit with me I can barely stand my ground.  I don't like being an attention whore.  I just want to be nice and friendly and win.

They should be fairly standard questions.  Questions which your normal thought process should answer.

Please answer them truthfully.

Please, start.  You have nothing to fear if you tell the truth.

With that in mind... Argembarger.  Why are you attempting to perform a policy lynch based on this?  After all, policy lynches are the easiest and most risk free for the scum.  The eye of truth is on you.

Argembarger: Do you think MBP is actually scum?  I would like a straight answer to this question.  If you think he is, why, and why have you been mainly focused on showing the policy aspects?  If you think he isn't, then why are you pushing it as a policy lynch?  You should realise by now that lying to me is not a good idea.

I think he's trying to tell us something.  This is interesting too.

Bringing back the Disciple of Truth is a pretty bastardly move.  As far as his actual alignment?  I'm thinking DoT is back in alien form, so I say third party.  He's been lurky and sidelined somewhat, so that's why I'm leaning away from human.  I can't say for certain, though.

As for Janus?  He started off with a Leafsnail policy lynch for his behavior in P17, which I've said I didn't like.  He doesn't care if he lynches a Spore Spreader, and he had to be pushed for real detail for his Argembarger case.  Overall, a bit odd, but not too scummy.

Finally, can I request one last LurkerTracker for the day?


Dariush:  What?  I've weighed in plenty on the biggest discussion currently (Kookgate) and even thrown some walls of text.  I've been voting Argem for several pages now.  My explanation is I'm trying to find scum, and I think I've got one bagged.


Argembarger:  The problem with your vote and argument is the order things came in.  My last post to you addressed your posts in order.  You changed your reason for voting him several times, and you had nothing besides his kook claim and how he approached it until just recently.  The last post of your arguments was too little, too late.

Agent claim:  If his own pressure isn't doing it, then a claim is the best way to get people on his side.  If he did that for a kook, that is bad news for himself. 

Townieness:  But has he done anything scummy?  Per the posts of yours I've been pointing out, it looks like the answer is no.

Yes completely ignore my arguments for his scumminess once more.

Next up: about face!  Suddenly he's scummy again for his actions, not the mere kook claim!

Again, quit painting contradictions into my statements. It's a pretty complicated issue, and I realize it can be hard to follow my logic sometimes, but I certainly don't need people going through and """finding""" so-called contradictions.

Consequences of early kook claim and scumminess go together to form my vote.

Again, it's out of order.  You didn't give anything about his actions other than claiming until just recently, long after you had gotten much pressure yourself.

[Jim Groovester]

Argembarger:
You were correct that whatever you do about your vote, you'll certainly hang; Your only hope right now is to roleclaim and hope that it is something both useful and verifiable. IMO. Note that even though I say so, I'm in no way convinced you're town, but if you are, and someone useful at that, it would be better for everyone if you claim right now.
Also, your quoting of probabilities would work only assuming everyone scanned at random, which they don't do. More unrelated information doesn't help your case at all.

Oh come on! This is rolefishing!

I can't be the only person who thinks Dariush is scummy. This is ridiculous.

As for Janus?  He started off with a Leafsnail policy lynch for his behavior in P17, which I've said I didn't like.  He doesn't care if he lynches a Spore Spreader, and he had to be pushed for real detail for his Argembarger case.  Overall, a bit odd, but not too scummy.

When you have somebody as silver-tongued as JanusTwoFace, anything odd and out of character is lynchable.

He bandwagoned on Argembarger and had to be pushed for reasons. When has that ever happened? Town JTF always has reasons for his vote, and good ones. JTF had to scramble to justify his vote after the fact and brought up anything that he could spin as a scum tell.

That's not normal, especially for JTF. He's scum.

ToonyMan, tell me what you think of JTF.

[ToonyMan]

Yeah he's more likely scum than not scum.

[Jim Groovester]

So Argembarger's scummier?

I kinda think somebody who jumps on a bandwagon tends to be scummier than somebody who tries and goes for a Day 1 Kook lynch, especially with how much Argembarger's fought for it.

[ToonyMan]

So Argembarger's scummier?

Yes.

Question Jim, are you fond of Zathras taking your side?

[Jim Groovester]

Yes.

It means I don't have to deal with him.

Why? Do you think he's buddying me? I don't think that's happening.

[ToonyMan]

Nah, I just thought it was funny because you usually disagree with him.