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[Dariush]

Dariush, please don't ignore my questions

Sorry, I overlooked that post.

Yes, I indeed think that MBP's claim should be ignored (for now). If we lynch him, nobody would ever claim Kook again. If we don't lynch him (because of his claim), every dopp would claim Kook. Man, this is the first day, we don't know virtually anything!

I don't think anything can be gained from Org lynch until he is inspected. Even if he is the spreader, he can't do anything until he is lynched anyway, and there are more pressing matters at hand to waste a lynch on him.

[Org]

Hmmmmmmmm.

[ToonyMan]

Hmmmmmmmm.

Jesus Christ.  Come on Org, this is why I grimace when I see you on the player list.

[Org]

Hmmmmmmmm.

Jesus Christ.  Come on Org, this is why I grimace when I see you on the player list.

hehehe.
All working out, don't you worry.

[Toaster]

Argembarger:  So you think any claim of kook is lynchworthy.  Ok, but let me put this to you: any agent knows not to scan him.  That gives said agent a narrower target profile, which helps the odds of a positive result.  Also, if he's telling the truth, we don't expose an agent falsely.  Yes, it doesn't help if he's lying, but there is *some* benefit to the town.  Is it outweighed by the WIFOM?  I lean toward no, because we can just continue to judge the claimee on his own merits.  I don't think MBP is particularly scummy.

I mean, if you want to run pure numbers on the matter:
the chance of actually lynching scum on day 1 is 2/11 or 3/11 or something.
the chance of getting rid of a WIFOM-filled kook can be 100%.

Also, these numbers are nonsense.  The first one assumes a completely random vote, which it certainly is not.  The second is making the assumption that he's telling the truth, which would mean it would be stupid to lynch him.  The only way you could know he was telling the truth is if you were scum yourself.


Zathras:  You wanted me to clarify- I accept that he claimed kook, but I don't extend that to believing it.  I thought I was clear enough that I considered it a null-tell.

You requested more reasoning on the Argem vote:  He's been a little too happy to post nonsense in lieu of contributing.  I realize that there are other offenders here (Toony and Org), but his determination to see MBP hang for claiming Kook bugs me.


Janus:  Re tie votes:  Ok, that's fair.


Org:  Do you get off on being useless?

[Argembarger]

Argembarger:  So you think any claim of kook is lynchworthy.  Ok, but let me put this to you: any agent knows not to scan him.  That gives said agent a narrower target profile, which helps the odds of a positive result.

Chance of an agent hitting scum if Kook is telling the truth: 2/9 or 3/9
Chance of an agent hitting scum if Kook is lying: 1/9 or 2/9

This is a very interesting argument. The odds get better only if MBP is telling the truth. The odds actually get smaller if he's lying.
If we want to talk about Agent scumfinding chances, a good way to optimize it is to simply lynch the kook, because we can get rid of that dangerous "lying" possibility.

Also, if he's telling the truth, we don't expose an agent falsely.  Yes, it doesn't help if he's lying, but there is *some* benefit to the town.  Is it outweighed by the WIFOM?  I lean toward no, because we can just continue to judge the claimee on his own merits.  I don't think MBP is particularly scummy.

First off, what in the world are you talking about, exposing an agent falsely? What do you mean? Elaborate upon this. Especially after you've already said that no agent in their right mind would target the man.

Judging the claimee on his own merits, eh? Wouldn't that be easier if his claim had come later in the game, when he has a post history with which to even make a judgement like that?

However, I don't find him to be particularly townish, even from the few posts he's made so far this game. The only real """town""" move I've seen argued for the man stems from this odd philosophy that an early kook claim is somehow something a townie would be likely to do.

I mean, if you want to run pure numbers on the matter:
the chance of actually lynching scum on day 1 is 2/11 or 3/11 or something.
the chance of getting rid of a WIFOM-filled kook can be 100%.

Also, these numbers are nonsense.  The first one assumes a completely random vote, which it certainly is not.

Oh right, that's why scum is nearly always lynched on Day 1, how silly of me.
No, of course it isn't a completely random vote, but on day 1, your chances of actually lynching scum are low enough that it might as well be for the purposes of calculating probability.
Sources Cited: Any mafia game. The only time scum consistently gets lynched in Day 1 is if they do something blisteringly pants-on-head stupid and aren't a jester. But then you have people like Org which makes it dangerous to lynch people for being blisteringly pants-on-head stupid, because he's just as likely to be town.
 

The second is making the assumption that he's telling the truth, which would mean it would be stupid to lynch him.  The only way you could know he was telling the truth is if you were scum yourself.

It makes no difference whether or not he is telling the truth; he may or may not be a dopp, but he is certainly spreading WIFOM. I've said this already and refer you to my other posts.

If we knew for a fact he was telling the truth, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Zathras:  You wanted me to clarify- I accept that he claimed kook, but I don't extend that to believing it.  I thought I was clear enough that I considered it a null-tell.

You requested more reasoning on the Argem vote:  He's been a little too happy to post nonsense in lieu of contributing.  I realize that there are other offenders here (Toony and Org), but his determination to see MBP hang for claiming Kook bugs me.


Janus:  Re tie votes:  Ok, that's fair.


Org:  Do you get off on being useless?

I sure appreciate my posts being called nonsense and carelessly thrown in in the Toony and Org zone

It kind of makes me wonder if all you did was skim them, looking for a quick point you could easily counter, meanwhile sitting back and waiting for the day to end.

If my posts really are nonsensical, please, be my guest and start dismantling them: show me the error of my thinking. I've written plenty of material to work with.

[ToonyMan]

If an agent investigates MBP then he won't immediately bring out the dopp result, which would reveal him and get himself killed during the night.  Although that doesn't prove if MBP is telling the truth about his claim or not.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

MBP, your stated list of suspicions don't match up with your vote. What gives?

An artifact, the Jokerman vote is from the RVS, and i tought i had unvoted since then ( i mostly fosed people as of now.) Unvote to remove ambiguousness

[Jim Groovester]

That's still not good enough. You say you suspect people. Why aren't you voting them?

[Leafsnail]

Uh, well... have been kindof slacking over Christmas, and am about to go inactive for a couple of days due to a holiday.

A few points before then:
Kook lynching to avoid a "lying possibility" is bullshit.  The kook is just someone the agent knows not to inspect.  We lynch hm if he seems to be scum.
Janus is basing his votes purely on activity, but that's just par for the course for him.  Incidnetally, he called me out for lurking at a time when I had more posts than him.  Honestly, I find Janus harder to read than Org, because he just doesn't post scumhunting related content.  Ever.
Org is probably town.  Scum Org is generally more helpful than this.
Argembarger: Do you think MBP is actually scum?  I would like a straight answer to this question.  If you think he is, why, and why have you been mainly focused on showing the policy aspects?  If you think he isn't, then why are you pushing it as a policy lynch?  You should realise by now that lying to me is not a good idea.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

And again, Zathras charging on and on, milking his Strawman Puppet for all it's worth. Let's hope he will someday learn to ditch it and argue the argument, not his version of them.

Let it be known that :

"Question are not the most important source of pressure" does not mean that they are not. That's being malicious.

I convinced nobody that i am a townie,except maybe Jim, like you seem so intent to believe. I may be a Kook or a dopp, and i'll be judged on what i do, scumhunting or else, that's pretty much all i see around here. Your opinion is best kept for you, especially when it is far removed from reality.

You seem to think that Kook claim is the greatest strategy ever for a dopp, but all you ever talk about is from a perfect dopp game point of view. Of course if you dont do anything scummy you wont be lynched, but so would a dopp doing the same thing. To add, scum game is never perfect. You can get caught by your voting habit, and link can be done with fellow scum. Claiming Kook only bring more suspicion to you, which is detrimental to scum. I'm all up for question, else i simply would have not claimed Kook and gone my merry way. I have given information, which is always valuable in uninformed majority vs informed minority. Try, for once, to understand the [u]meaning[/u] of my words. try it again. More. Come on, work it. You will get it eventually.

Again, you sand analogy is simply stupid, as those grain are strewn from your little interpretation. You can scream OMGUS all you want i've got reason to believe you or argem are out to kill a town for idiotic ( or at the very least unfounded) reasons, and thus you get fossed. No hunting ? fair, i have not been hunting much. But yet again, i'm far from the worst ( Hi, Org ). Lie because i said you did not read my post ? Well clearly your opinion is so much superior to mine that i should instantly agree with you. After all, your opinion on your strawman version of my post represent clearly and fairly my exact and precise tought. Also, i should totally accept to get lynched by your argument, theres is absolutely no way you may be wrong, or self-interested in any mean, defending myself from your bullshit is a clear neon sign that i am the absolute worst scum in history and should die forever.

Now that all the sarcasm is evacuated, you and argem are my top pick since you are so eager to see me fall, to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. It's both terribly obvious and depressing. Who know my role right now ? Me and the scum. They are fully aware than i am a Kook, since i'm not part of their little clique. Thats the only reason i can see to put so much work in a lynch that you admitted was pretty weak. Scumhunting lacking on my part ? Fair enough, but you havent got much more to show to me. Zath , go on and cry OMGUS on top of your lungs, to had a little bit of shit to your castle, i don't care.

Argem, the number you pulled out of your ass are distracting. The "he may be lying" shit is distracting. All you ever do is spreading the wifom thats apparently my ticket to lynch town. Instead of arguing forever about my intentions, why don't you use you head and look for scum or clue ? That would do a world of good. Also, if i am not townish, that would imply i am scummy. On what grounds ?

For the hunting part.

Toonyman is less active than i rememeber him, and again mostly on technical point. Id like to hear who are your most likely scumpick for now.

Org. I don't actually see much difference from his other game. Sporre Spreader or not, he is infuriating and unhelpfull.

Joker need to get playing soon, he only got a couple of post since the start, and it start to reek of voluntary lurking

Jim Whats up with defending me ? I don't need it, and i don't want a buddy. If you want to help town, scumhunting is the way to go. What is your opinion on Argem and especially Zath. everyboy seem to stay clear off him,  somehow.

I'll go back and read the others contribution later tonight or tommorow.



2 New replies

Jim, was typing it

Leafsnail, i had forgotten you were in this game, however much you may be better than Janus, it still is not a free ticket to lurkville. I hope you will post more soon.

[ToonyMan]

That would be Argembarger.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim Whats up with defending me ? I don't need it, and i don't want a buddy. If you want to help town, scumhunting is the way to go. What is your opinion on Argem and especially Zath. everyboy seem to stay clear off him,  somehow.

I'd rather see somebody else lynched and I need to make room for it by convincing people that you shouldn't be lynched.

And I hardly need a buddy like you either.

Zathras is town even if he has his head stuck up his ass, which isn't unusual for him, because he's aggressive like hell. Argembarger is town for much the same reasons.

Jim, was typing it

Fair enough.

But maybe I'm wrong? Is my logic faulty? (question addressed at Jim & Janus; MBP: shut up, I've seen your "logic", and I'd rather not soil my hands with it).

Any reason why you're singling me and JTF out?

I'll tell you what I think even though I'm pretty certain you don't really care. MBP's done nothing but deal with the fallout of his kook claim ever since he made it, and he's not backing down from the reasons he said he made his claim. And if I thought he were claiming so that he didn't have to participate ever again I'd be on him in a second, but he's not doing that either. He keeps coming back and arguing with you and Argembarger about it, and I don't think he's being disingenuous with what he says, even if most of it is full of holes and can be picked apart by anybody who wants to.

It's not so much that your logic is wrong, it's just that you're not reading him right. Logic is not a very useful tool for scumhunting, in case you didn't notice by now.

I'm not going to bother anymore.

You requested more reasoning on the Argem vote:  He's been a little too happy to post nonsense in lieu of contributing.  I realize that there are other offenders here (Toony and Org), but his determination to see MBP hang for claiming Kook bugs me.

Okay, but how does that compare to Argembarger's scum play?

In Paranormal 17 if his attack met with resistance he gave it up after a while. He's in the lead for votes now and he still isn't giving it up. This determination is unlike him when he's scum.

Argembarger, has it dawned on you that you're in the lead for votes?

[Argembarger]

Uh, well... have been kindof slacking over Christmas, and am about to go inactive for a couple of days due to a holiday.

A few points before then:
Kook lynching to avoid a "lying possibility" is bullshit.  The kook is just someone the agent knows not to inspect.  We lynch hm if he seems to be scum.

It is just one of many factors involved, is all.

Basing the whole argument around it would be stupid, yes. I might as well vote someone claiming "town" because they might be lying.

The "lying possibility" simply comes with other, less obvious consequences, that I wished to point out.

Janus is basing his votes purely on activity, but that's just par for the course for him.  Incidnetally, he called me out for lurking at a time when I had more posts than him.  Honestly, I find Janus harder to read than Org, because he just doesn't post scumhunting related content.  Ever.
Org is probably town.  Scum Org is generally more helpful than this.
Argembarger: Do you think MBP is actually scum?  I would like a straight answer to this question.  If you think he is, why, and why have you been mainly focused on showing the policy aspects?  If you think he isn't, then why are you pushing it as a policy lynch?  You should realise by now that lying to me is not a good idea.

Yes. I do think he's scummy. I've said a few times, that the whole lynch-the-kook thing involves nobody too much scummier than the "kook" being around.

But, I suppose I have spent enough time discussing policy, eh? I only wish to state that it is because nearly all of the queries directed to me have been related to the "policy" aspects of it all. And because I've been answering them, that's what I've talked about the most.

His very first post after the game starts and bang-pow, he's being a weird question-dodging guy. Not going to say anything about his pointless question, because it IS random vote stage.

The controversial roleclaim, still nothing of substance otherwise, but it's still RVS at that point I suppose.

It is at this point that Zathras votes MBP.

Still beating around the bush. Still avoiding wanting to come out and say "I am kook" explicitly, even though it's already obvious. Still no scumhunting, or even vague attempts thereof.

See above.

See above, except he finally gives a straight answer to the questions. Explicit kook. Tries to give excuses for why he didn't just say so.

It is at this point that I vote MBP.

Tries to claim moral high ground for claiming Kook, starts coming up with reasons why he did to defend himself and justify it as a town move. Claims he wasn't being secretive, even though he wasted several posts just floundering pre-claim.

Nothing post

Response to Zath, and implicitly, me. "My behavior is not one of lurking and shuuffling around." - note, a lie. "And you are right, i'm not a good liar." - irony? Also, this is the very first sign of any scumhunting, at all, in the game. This is the first sign of a post that isn't purely self-preservatory/useless. And who does he go for right away? Me and Zath. What does the bulk of his hunting comprise of? Asking us why we're voting him, basically. So it is still self-preservatory.

It is at this point that the wave of questions regarding the logic of lynching a Kook really takes off.

Holiday Greetings post; I'll ignore it because it was actually quite nice.

OMGUSing me, or, well, OMFOS I suppose, heh. Throws a bunch of WIFOM and then basically says I'm scum for being active and aggressive.

moooore seeeelf preeeeesserrrrvaaaatioooon. Note well the continued suspicion of Zath and me, simply for thinking of him as anything but a little kooky angel. ALSO NOTICE: The FIRST TIME in the ENTIRE GAME he mentions ANYONE ELSE. It's Dariush. And what brought this newfound sense of scumhunting and attempted helpfulness? A question, directed by me.

wave o' selfpres
still nothing
removes his vote from RVS
Most recent post. A huge batch of OMGUS and self-preservation. AND THE FIRST LEGITIMATE SIGN OF SCUMHUNTING HOPY SHIT

Argem, the number you pulled out of your ass are distracting. The "he may be lying" shit is distracting. All you ever do is spreading the wifom thats apparently my ticket to lynch town. Instead of arguing forever about my intentions, why don't you use you head and look for scum or clue ? That would do a world of good. Also, if i am not townish, that would imply i am scummy. On what grounds ?

Did you just accuse me of not scumhunting
WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

To conclude:
He's very scummy.
There are legitimate reasons to want to get rid of someone jumping around claiming kook.
Both of those combine to form... MY VOTE!!! yaaaaaaaaaaay

Argembarger, has it dawned on you that you're in the lead for votes?

There's not really too much I can do about that; I'm invested, and I believe in what I'm saying. Everyone's voting me for my vote on MBP. Even if I wanted to have a change of heart and take off my vote, that would be the nail in the coffin.

Only thing I can do is keep on keeping on and hope people realize I'm not the stupid psychopath they seem to think I am.

[Zathras]

Janus: I know it's weekend, but I'd still like a response to my last regarding your thoughts on MBP and Arg.

Toaster: What's your read on Leafsnail and Janus?

Dariush:

Yes, I indeed think that MBP's claim should be ignored (for now). If we lynch him, nobody would ever claim Kook again. If we don't lynch him (because of his claim), every dopp would claim Kook. Man, this is the first day, we don't know virtually anything!

What are you saying here? That he should be lynched D2? I don't follow. Also, please tell me your impressions on Leasfnail, Janus and Toaster.

Jim:

But maybe I'm wrong? Is my logic faulty? (question addressed at Jim & Janus; MBP: shut up, I've seen your "logic", and I'd rather not soil my hands with it).

Any reason why you're singling me and JTF out?

I'll tell you what I think even though I'm pretty certain you don't really care. MBP's done nothing but deal with the fallout of his kook claim ever since he made it, and he's not backing down from the reasons he said he made his claim. And if I thought he were claiming so that he didn't have to participate ever again I'd be on him in a second, but he's not doing that either. He keeps coming back and arguing with you and Argembarger about it, and I don't think he's being disingenuous with what he says, even if most of it is full of holes and can be picked apart by anybody who wants to.

It's not so much that your logic is wrong, it's just that you're not reading him right. Logic is not a very useful tool for scumhunting, in case you didn't notice by now.

I asked the two of you because you both called him town (instead of null tell), and you also use logic in your posts unlike (herp derp) others... I think logic is useful, just not the end-all-be-all of scumhunting; I just can't leave it to one side either. And he does read scummy to me. And of course I care, Jim, darling. 8-P



But I have to comment at least a bit on the latest batch of pearls from MBP:

"Question are not the most important source of pressure" does not mean that they are not. That's being malicious.

That's not what you said. You said "Pressure is NOT mesured by question asked. Thats a smokeschreen and you know it." So, am I pressuring you by questioning you, or not? You are squirming to get out of what you said. Where's that smokescreen to which you referred?

You seem to think that Kook claim is the greatest strategy ever for a dopp, but all you ever talk about is from a perfect dopp game point of view.

Nope. I said it's not the best tactic, but it's certainly a viable one. Don't put words in my mouth.

Lie because i said you did not read my post ? Well clearly your opinion is so much superior to mine that i should instantly agree with you. After all, your opinion on your strawman version of my post represent clearly and fairly my exact and precise tought.

You said "Zathras disregarding eveything in my post." I proved I didn't. It's not up to interpretation, you stated an untruth. Do you still think I disregarded everything in it? If so, show it. If not, then you are lying, as I said. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

theres is absolutely no way you may be wrong, or self-interested in any mean, defending myself from your bullshit is a clear neon sign that i am the absolute worst scum in history and should die forever.

Wow. And you dare to call me for strawmen? Shit, dude, you're dripping in it now.

Scumhunting lacking on my part ? Fair enough, but you havent got much more to show to me. Zath , go on and cry OMGUS on top of your lungs, to had a little bit of shit to your castle, i don't care.

* cries at top of lungs * OOMMGGUUSS!!!!  8-P
Heh. But that aside, I do have more to show, and I don't need to show it to you, but to the rest:

Yes, we don't have anything solid on the top contenders, so we go for scumminess. You have on you so far: a) an entirely useless RV question; b) utter lack of hunting; c) your claim, well defended; d) your OMGUSy "suspicions"; e) your endless self-preservation and insistence of your innocence; f) your overt lies about my responding your questions; g) your willingness to see someone else hang even if you clearly don't think they're scummy enough, but better them than you; and recently h) your call for those attacking you to redirect their efforts elsewhere: "Mom! They're picking on me! Leave me alone!" is also a scumtell, from a scum cracking under pressure.

To this we can add the two further lies above, the defence of a previous lie, and a nice strawman. As I said earlier, it's not an overwhelming case, but more than I have on the others, so I present it for review and vote you for it. Each point is small on its own, but I see their cumulative effect as telling, hence my "grains of sand" comment.

I'm surprised people seem prone to take you at your word, but that's OK. To each his own. As I said in my previous, my point is made and it's up to people to make their own minds up, and a wider breadth would be healthy for all involved, so I'll move elsewhere for now... unless you keep jamming your own foot in your mouth and leave us no choice.