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Author Topic: Mass Effect 3  (Read 53436 times)

fenrif

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #630 on: April 03, 2012, 10:31:39 am »

No, the ending to ME3 is bad. From narrative, thematic, and gameplay perspectives it fails miserably to even remain consistent with the rest of the game, let alone the rest of the trilogy. Yes you can still like it, but it doesn't magically change it into a good ending. This isn't really a matter of opinion, it's looking at things objectively. TOR was a run-of-the-mill generic MMO with monotonous combat, a broken to non-existant end game, repetetive quests and lots of busy work. DA2 was an unfinished game.

It's possible for you to like something and it still be bad, I like plenty of movies that are just terrible. Things like Troll 2 or Plan 9 from Outer Space are loved by hordes of people, but they are objectively terrible films. Something being broken isn't a matter of opinion. How much fun you had with it, and how much enjoyment you had with it is.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #631 on: April 03, 2012, 10:34:21 am »

Fenrif, I think you've gone a little overboard about this.
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inteuniso

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #632 on: April 03, 2012, 11:38:12 am »

Not really. It was bad. In a story encompassing 3 rather big games, where a lot of choices seemed to actually have impact, the ending just... ruined it. It's like having a great 3 course meal, and discovering at the very end the  last bit of dessert gives you food poisoning and you regurgitate the entirety of the meal.
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Kilroy the Grand

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #633 on: April 03, 2012, 11:45:11 am »

Things like Troll 2 or Plan 9 from Outer Space are loved by hordes of people, but they are objectively terrible films. Something being broken isn't a matter of opinion. How much fun you had with it, and how much enjoyment you had with it is.

I still believe Reptilian was a far far worse, and better movie than either of those.
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Darkmere

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #634 on: April 03, 2012, 11:54:19 am »

And please, next time you want to make a counter point, try to be polite about it. I'm doing the same.

Ah, well, sorry. I thought I'd phrased it more neutral than I came off.

Can someone explain how ME 1's story was so much better than the others? You see the "villain" in person twice, character development is mostly paltry, most of the sidequests are unrelated to the main plot, etc. etc.
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shadenight123

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #635 on: April 03, 2012, 11:54:44 am »

If you can't solve a problem by looking at it directly, go backwards.

Or better yet, if you can't solve an ending by looking at what proves it, look at what disproves it, remove the impossible and what remains is the possible, no matter how improbable it may be.

(horrible mixing of holmes and someone else)

Let's try instead of giving evidence to "why the game ending was bad" or "it's indoctrination theory" to try and Justify all of the ending's problems.
Yes, let's do this bit of mental workout.

First off, the most easy one:
Joker escaping.
This is the easiest by far, since the Normandy is a sentient AI, it simply taps onto your communicator while you're going, hears you and ghostly kid talking refers it to jeff, and since jeff doesn't want to lose the Normandy it runs away far from the crucible.
This justifies TWO endings out of three. the blue and the red one are justifiable through this theory, the green one not so, since if edi is shown present it means the normandy wouldn't have sustained damage quantifiable for a retreat, but maybe edi tapped the comm till "You decide" jeff didn't want risks and began running away with his metallic lover.
Bringing everyone else with him.

Problem number two: loved one/final pushed one with joker on the normandy.
Well...they could have embarked on a first aid shuttle back on orbit. (do those exist?) it could be they took a lift and got back on the normandy, but it's improbable being it a warzone.
This is unjustifiable. The current ending is cracking.
Lets keep on the pressure with problem number three:

Shepard seeing the kid is justifiable, because, after all if the citadel is the ruler of the masters of indoctrination, if he can't open wide a mind and read through it like a book, he isn't qualified for the job. he chooses thus the one who could induce more pity/remorse on shepard. easy as pie.

Shepard's illusive man and anderson are justifiable too, the first one got on board with the remaining cerberus forces, right where the *choices* were, he tried controlling it, failed without dying, but the rest of his forces were pulverized. he escaped with what remained down to where shepard is.
captain anderson says he's behind you, now, since that beam is used to collect corpses and the citadel is big, maybe they placed anderson on another *cargo area* or maybe the beam itself makes the choice of where to put *the corpses* captain anderson is less wounded than you, so while you walk, he runs, and reaches the point before the citadel *rearranges itself* once more to allow you passage.
justifiable.

shepards chooses the destruction ending. everything goes on a boom red firework mode, yet, he lives.
...
shepard is, as can be noted by a full renegade implants, utterly synthetic in a long, long run. Anyone remembers the ME2 beginning movie? during the ME3 run, while edi hacks through, there are terminals available, narrating how of shepard, the only things which remained of useful was the brain.
miranda then scooped in bringing you back.
but it is highly reasonable to understand that most of shepard is synthetic, and by most, i actually mean "all that is needed for basic human functions".
yet, choosing destruction on high setting is the only thing that allows shepard, (or someone with a N7 armor) to breath.

he simply shouldn't. he should be dead. pulverized. he should be dust blown into space.
wherever or not he fell in the citadel or out of it and survived a planetfall, (which would kind of make him an ultimate badass mind you), how can he still breath and be alive? why won't he stay dead for harbringer's sake!?
unjustifiable, shepard should stay dead, dead, and dead!

finally, the post final run has shepard wielding an unending gun which shoots bullets, considering this type of slowmo was used on mars before (though with bullets) and considering small plants growing up behind shepard while he walk, it could be shepard is hallucinating due to damage taken, brain concussions and so on, and simply doesn't take notice of his gun's ammo. (recharging animation works, slow as the rest but it works)
little justifiable. not much but a little

now don't take this as a flame starter, but i want everyone who can to try and "justify" the ending. all the points toward the indoctrination theory must be justified in *some way*.
at least try. if one of them turns out impossible, we can at least have *hope*.

*And i still want to see my blue children with liara, this is commander shepard, and this is my favorite romance*
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fenrif

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #636 on: April 03, 2012, 01:51:01 pm »

Fenrif, I think you've gone a little overboard about this.

I did? I'm just trying to say that there's a difference between personal opinion and criticizing something based on technical aspects. I guess I came off kind of antagonistic (which I honestly didn't intend), but I definatly think it's a point worth making. Sorry if I'm coming off as an asshole.

Can someone explain how ME 1's story was so much better than the others? You see the "villain" in person twice, character development is mostly paltry, most of the sidequests are unrelated to the main plot, etc. etc.

It's not that ME1 had a terribly good story, it's that it was a decent opening for a story. Look to the comparison I made with Lost. The first season, when it came out, was awesome. It got everyone watching the show, and made it a huge hit. This isn't really because the plot was terribly good, it's because when you're setting up a story it's really easy to set up all these dramatic payoffs and narrative hooks. The problem is when none of those things are delivered on, or are done in an unrewarding manner. It's easy to begin a complicated mystery, but finishing it in a way where all the evidence pays off with a sense of closure is much more difficult.

ME1's strengths werent really in the writing in that game, but in the promise of the future games. The idea that every choice you made matters, the idea that these Reapers would be the complicated unknowable cosmic horrors they were presented as. The chance to see your party members, your Shepard, and even the ME universe grow and expand based on what you did and how you did it. The biggest failing in ME2 and 3 is that none of this is realised with any depth. ME1 also as far as I can remember, did a better job with the paragon/renegade system than later games.

And as I've said before, I don't think Bioware are particularily good at writing plot, not nowadays anyway. They are good at creating a game world you want to explore, and writing characters you want to spend time with, but once they've done that they don't seem to know what to do with them.
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Domenique

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #637 on: April 03, 2012, 02:04:15 pm »

...

The main point of the indoctrination theory is that the whole ending after shepard is blasted by harbinger takes place in his own mind. He doesn't actually change anything in the ending, he only either succumbs to the indoctrination (the blue and the green choices, representing illusive and saren respectively) or breaks free (representing the red ending and anderson). The point being that Joker running is Shepard's hallucination of hope. It's part of a psychedelic dream expirience he's having, induced by indoctrination.
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shadenight123

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #638 on: April 03, 2012, 02:11:11 pm »

Yes, and while I too share that theory, one more point in it's favor would actually be to try and *disprove* it's existence.
Like you do to prove some mathematical theorems, you reason "by absurd" that it's not like that.
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“Well,” he said. “We’re in the Forgotten hunting grounds I take it. Your screams just woke them up early. Congratulations, Lyara.”
“Do something!” she whispered, trying to keep her sight on all of them at once.
Basileus clapped his hands once. The Forgotten took a step forward, attracted by the sound.
“There, I did something. I clapped. I like clapping,” he said. -The Investigator And The Case Of The Missing Brain.

mainiac

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #639 on: April 03, 2012, 02:51:21 pm »

Yes, and while I too share that theory, one more point in it's favor would actually be to try and *disprove* it's existence.
Like you do to prove some mathematical theorems, you reason "by absurd" that it's not like that.

Reductio ad absurdum does not mean that you show showthing is absurd.  You show that it's self-contradictory.  There is a very real and very important difference.  Complex numbers and non-Euclidean geometry were shown to be "absurd" when first encountered.  However that doesn't mean that they don't form logically consistent frameworks.

Personally I think the series screw itself over with ME2.  ME1 has a central conflict that makes sense.  One side wants to wake the Reapers, the other side to keep them asleep.  If the Reapers wake, game over because they are too strong to resist.  Then ME2 decided to screw that premise and make that we are trying to resist the Reapers after all.  That destroys the dynamic.  Once you've said that a character is invincible then any fight they are in, win or lose, will seem hollow and inconsistent.

ME2 and ME3 should have just kept the Reapers asleep and recycled the conflict from ME1 on a wider scale.  It would have been that the Geth and everyone else know that the Reapers are out there to wake up.  Everyone wants to use Reaper technology even if they risk dooming the whole galaxy.  There could be huge wars akin to the first contact wars as people fight over Prothean technology now that they know so much more about it.  You could have an epic showdown where Sheperds needs to destroy a new beacon the Geth are constructing.  You could have the Krogans discover some Reaper doomsday device and start exacting revenge on the Salarians.  Plenty of really climatic resolutions are impossible without ever bringing the Reapers into the arena directly.

The Reapers of ME1 are a sword of Damocles, hanging over our collective heads.  They are a constant threat, raising the stakes of everything.  If you take the sword of Damocles down and give it a swing it stops being a looming threat and becomes just another sword.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 02:53:13 pm by mainiac »
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Domenique

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #640 on: April 03, 2012, 03:01:57 pm »

Yes, and while I too share that theory, one more point in it's favor would actually be to try and *disprove* it's existence.
Like you do to prove some mathematical theorems, you reason "by absurd" that it's not like that.

http://youtu.be/ZZOyeFvnhiI?t=20m2s

Angry Joe talks about that in the moment I've posted here.

1. Why doesn't Harbinger kill Shepard? Well, I think the whole indoctrination thing is to have a valuable agent on your side, and dead isn't really valuable.

2. You can be killed by both Illusive and Marrauder Shields in the ending, making it impossible to be a dream. Unless it's an oversight, or getting killed in a dream means you succumb to the indoctrination. Maybe harbinger deems you unworthy if mr. Shields is able to kill you. However, it is a very good counter-argument.

3. In the end the player and Shepard are separated. I didn't get that, my english is not good enough.
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Darkmere

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #641 on: April 03, 2012, 03:59:17 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I never watched Lost, but I feel exactly the same way about the Battlestar Galactica remake, so I'll go with that sentiment. I would say that the choices you make *do* matter, but in a reasonable scope. Shepard is just Shepard, s/he can only influence the universe to a limited extent. Even if the events of all 3 games are major, and Shepard is involved in lots of history-making decisions, there is a larger galactic stage where things are happening that you (Shep, or the player) simply cannot control. The variations come with how Shep and the people around him/her deal with reality, and each other.

I'd say ME2's Paragon/Renegade scale was best, as you can justify your actions based on ruthless pragmatism or idealistic goals. 1's Renegade had overtones of irrational hatred at times, and 3 goes into sadistic, destructive insanity more than once.

ME1 has a central conflict that makes sense.  One side wants to wake the Reapers, the other side to keep them asleep.

This is incorrect. The reapers have been actively plotting their return for at least ~2000 years (Rachni wars were a result of indoctrination, presumably as an attempt to weaken galactic infrastructure). There is no escape from it. Saren was simply trying to cooperate to make organics look useful.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. There's at least 1 other soldier who dies on the ground between you and the beam. If it is an indoctrination plot, Harbinger could just assume Shepard will succumb or bleed to death. Also, Hackett sends part of the Sword fleet to intercept the reapers who are attacking Hammer, and it's stated that reaper dreadnaughts don't land on planets often because lowering their mass enough to do so leaves them more vulnerable. Maybe Harbinger had to leave before it got shot.

2. Dying in a dream could mean losing the will to fight, just like not shooting TIM.

3. It means you (the player) aren't seeing things from Shepard's viewpoint. If this was an illusion, why would Shepard see the aftermath of his own death, including killing all the reapers and "winning" in the red ending. I think this actually works with the indoctrination theory, more than it being an actual resolution.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

mainiac

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #642 on: April 03, 2012, 05:25:22 pm »

The rachnii wars were caused by the reapers?  Was that in ME1?
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SeriousConcentrate

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #643 on: April 03, 2012, 05:33:31 pm »

I believe the Rachni queen mentions the machines making her race do that. She doesn't say Reapers but it's inferred pretty heavily.
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mainiac

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #644 on: April 03, 2012, 05:52:48 pm »

I believe the Rachni queen mentions the machines making her race do that. She doesn't say Reapers but it's inferred pretty heavily.

Isn't she referring to the machines of the people who have her in captivity on Noveria?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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