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Author Topic: Mass Effect 3  (Read 53660 times)

inteuniso

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #195 on: February 22, 2012, 10:41:48 pm »

EA is evil.
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Microcline

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #196 on: February 22, 2012, 10:42:57 pm »

I think the boycott rhetoric is overblown, nobody can really know that this DLC dude is essential to the plot. It's just TB stirring up video views. Expecting this to turn out the same as every other game 'boycott': with basically everyone who got worked up about it buying the game.
I don't think this boycott is going to do anything either.  Bioware loyalists are going to buy it day one no matter what, and they've probably already pre-ordered.  We'll probably observe the same trend we saw with DA2 and TOR: a large spike in purchases around release followed by a sharp drop.  The problem is that Bioware can't rely on their ever shrinking core fanbase to keep them afloat, especially given that EA will likely consider anything below ME2's numbers to be a failure.

What will kill ME3 in the end is apathy.  They haven't succeeded in obtaining "Call of Duty's audience" because they aren't interested in RPGs (note that DA2, despite being a sequel sold less than DA:O), and have squandered their existing fanbase with cash-ins, mediocre titles, and poor writing.  Do we still care about Shepard when all his dialog options lead to incoherent rambling about the reapers?  Do we still care about choices when we know that the only tangible result will be an email and possibly and ending slide?  Strip away the bells and whistles and all that's left is a mediocre cover-based shooter, and outside of the dreaded Bioware Social forums (I get the feeling that at this point, like Conservepedia, the Bioware forums have a pretty even ratio of trolls to fans) I don't see many people getting rallied up about it.
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catoblepas

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #197 on: February 22, 2012, 10:50:21 pm »

I think the boycott rhetoric is overblown, nobody can really know that this DLC dude is essential to the plot. It's just TB stirring up video views. Expecting this to turn out the same as every other game 'boycott': with basically everyone who got worked up about it buying the game.
I don't think this boycott is going to do anything either.  Bioware loyalists are going to buy it day one no matter what, and they've probably already pre-ordered.  We'll probably observe the same trend we saw with DA2 and TOR: a large spike in purchases around release followed by a sharp drop.  The problem is that Bioware can't rely on their ever shrinking core fanbase to keep them afloat, especially given that EA will likely consider anything below ME2's numbers to be a failure.

What will kill ME3 in the end is apathy.  They haven't succeeded in obtaining "Call of Duty's audience" because they aren't interested in RPGs (note that DA2, despite being a sequel sold less than DA:O), and have squandered their existing fanbase with cash-ins, mediocre titles, and poor writing.  Do we still care about Shepard when all his dialog options lead to incoherent rambling about the reapers?  Do we still care about choices when we know that the only tangible result will be an email and possibly and ending slide?  Strip away the bells and whistles and all that's left is a mediocre cover-based shooter, and outside of the dreaded Bioware Social forums (I get the feeling that at this point, like Conservepedia, the Bioware forums have a pretty even ratio of trolls to fans) I don't see many people getting rallied up about it.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I bought every Bioware game up to Mass Effect, and would have bought it as well (even if it had entailed buying a xbox 360) if I hadn't been so disappointed with ME2 when it came out. I'd say I feel somewhat alienated by their most recent offerings.
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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #198 on: February 22, 2012, 10:52:58 pm »

Welllllll I guess I'm not buying ME3.

lol wut r ethic
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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #199 on: February 22, 2012, 11:56:13 pm »

I think the worst part is, the more I hear about ME3, the more it sounds like a trumped up non-ending in the works. It's like that TV show you loved for a few years, then some of the cast left, then the plot stopped making as much sense. But you still watched it, because you loved the show, and you were gonna stick it out. And then the ending sucked. And then you were mad that you'd stuck it out. And then you felt betrayed. And then they tried to make a spin-off series...
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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #200 on: February 23, 2012, 02:09:58 am »

Mass Effect was a knockoff of Knights of the Old Republic. The inventory system was mostly ineffectual, because the weapons weren't different. You picked the gun with highest stats (after playthrough one this was even worse. Get money, buy Spectre guns, done). You even get force push with biotics! No classes had any signature skills, there wasn't much difference between an adept and vanguard at high levels because barrier was the most effective for both, almost outstripping the soldier's Immunity, which was all they had.

I don't know where poorly developed squadmates in 2 comes from, as learning about your team via their missions is 80% of the game. Garrus in 1: hunt down a scientist that escaped from the Citadel. Garrus in 2: comes to terms with his failure as a team leader, the death of all those under his command, being a washout as a C-Sec/Specter, possibly Shepard's feelings for him. He was in both, so let's take a secondary squaddie for single-game development. Kaiden: all of his issues revolve around biotic training and history. He has no major developments apart from possibly Shepard's romantic intentions and a few headaches. Jack: begins as a wretched prisoner who comes from a life of abuse and neglect. As the story progresses, she seems to find something worth fighting for, to the point of in the last mission, calling Shepard "Commander" and develops some purpose in life. She actually, you know.... develops.

I'd even say the RP possiblities for Shepard are expanded in 2, as on a few occasions there's multiple options for paragon/renegade variance, instead of blue text/red text/neutral. If you want to play a hardass who also genuinely cares for his team, there are additional options to support that. The extent of this in 1 was mostly limited to blue (egalitarian, tolerant) or red (pragmatic, racist). The only nod to this that I recall from multiple plays of 1 was, dialogue changed depending on your paragon/renegade status and whether the council survived.

Regarding lots of empty hallways... plot missions aside, all of ME1 was 2 or 3 buildings with the crates moved around. Or that one ship design... with the crates moved around. Or that cave, with rocks/crates moved around. Oh, 2 also had a fight composition besides "lots of soldiers" or "lots of geth."

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed 1, but it wasn't some rich bastion of RPG's. No matter what, you're a soldier, and you're the hero. You shoot things. Sometimes you talk, but that's between shooting things. 2 just gave up cumbersome, largely irrelevant inventory management in favor of a more detailed tactical system, and made class/squad choice more meaningful with greater focus on individual powers and using your squad correctly. It's two different approaches, one garnered more positive feedback, so they stuck with it.

Sorry its been a day since this was posted, but I wasn't able to get on yesterday, and given that you took the time to write all that up, I figured you deserve the time for me to write a response.

I never said ME1 was a perfect game. I said it was promising. It had flaws. Some big ones even, but they were fixable. But instead of taking it, looking at it, and fixing it, they just ripped everything out until we had generic shooter #502 with dialogue trees. Although I find calling it a Kotor ripoff kinda funny, since really the only similarities I see are space, and psychic-esque powers.

As for the characters in 2. They are one or two dimensional. Everything about them either revolves around one issue that you are forced to resolve FOR THEM, or fucking Shepard. And speaking of characters what the fuck happened to Garrus. He went from a young, inexperienced cop; to this badass jaded vigilante who's got half the underworld scared of him in what, two years? The hell? That's a pretty drastic change for me to swallow. Are any of the characters EVER given any characterization outside of their one big problem you have to solve for all of them, or romancing Shepard? I mean, they'll give you blurbs about their past and what they've done, but these usually revolve around their one big problem. They can all be broken down into a single digit amount of character traits. Outside of occasional good moments, they are boring.

Also what the FUCK, is up with Samara's loyalty mission and the choice at the end? Why is there even a choice? WHY WOULD YOU PICK THE MASS MURDERING SUCCUBUS GIRL WHO FUCKS PEOPLE TO DEATH AND REFUSES TO EVER STOP?! For any other reason than to be an evil prick? Why would any Shepard EVER do that? That's not even remotely heroic, at all, why would even a renegade do that?! That's not pragmatic, Samara is SWORN TO DO WHAT YOU TELL HER. HER EVIL DAUGHTER IS NOT. Sorry, but that scene just stuck in my head as so monumentally stupid and badly done.

Also, by plot missions aside from your quote... what? Plot missions ARE THE GAME. ME1 had generic side content? Yes, yes it did, and that could have used some work. But it was side content. Almost all of it was completely and utterly skippable and had no bearing on the main plot whatsoever. And the plot missions were varied, had you taking the fight to your foes in large, colorful, and varied areas. With fun setpieces and tension. Big shit was going down, and you had to save the day. Wheres the tension in two? You're just chilling in your ship, tooling around the galaxy. Waiting for something to happen so you can continue. You're not trying to progress things or solve the problem. You're letting other people call the shots and point you where to go, doing your investigating and tracking down your leads. There's like three story missions. The rest is getting your crew and magically solving all their personal problems. There's barely any plot. It go down corridor, shoot mercenaries/geth/krogan , get teammate. Repeat until game says you can do some more plot. And then there's the loyalty missions Which are basically go down the corridor, shoot mercenaries/geth/krogan, talk out problem. Or kill your teammate, and trust the evil succubus daughter to not just disappear on you. (Can you tell how much that really REALLY got to me?) And the mining mini-game. Yeah, that's sooo much better then the Mako. That's definitely an approach that garnered more positive feedback. And I didn't notice that many more different ways to play your personality in 2 then 1. You're given 3 options, nice, dick, and neutral, to varying degrees. With occasional special dick or nice moves. I suppose you could pick paragon options in conversations with teammates, and dick options to get things done. But that's not really intentional character depth on the developers part. And meaningful squad choice? When was it ever meaningful? Your teammates were useless 80% of the time unless you take an inordinate amount of time to baby them. And even then, They'll almost never use their powers, and if they do, they don't do it intelligently. The only use they ever had was having their powers in my hotbar. Not like they ever use em.

I could go on, but its late, and I'm all textwall'd out. Plus its been so long since I've experienced either game that my memory isn't exactly fresh as a spring breeze.
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Sirus

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #201 on: February 23, 2012, 03:05:37 am »

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Plus its been so long since I've experienced either game that my memory isn't exactly fresh as a spring breeze.
No shit  ::)
Let's go through this bit by bit, shall we?
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I never said ME1 was a perfect game. I said it was promising. It had flaws. Some big ones even, but they were fixable.
It would help if you would mention which flaws you're thinking of, though I can guess that the inventory system is one of them. It's also important to note that many such "flaws" are personal preferences, and some people genuinely enjoyed the complex modification system. I'm personally guilty of this, having spent plenty of time making sure every team member had effective weapons, armor, and useful mods for them.
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But instead of taking it, looking at it, and fixing it, they just ripped everything out until we had generic shooter #502 with dialogue trees.
Right here, you're guilty of "it's popular, so it sucks" syndrome. Shooters are a popular genre of game, and make lots of money. That doesn't mean that they're all terrible or carbon-copy clones of each other. This is also overlooking the fact that ME2's combat system is much more highly regarded in many circles than the original.
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As for the characters in 2. They are one or two dimensional. Everything about them either revolves around one issue that you are forced to resolve FOR THEM, or fucking Shepard.
Now this is a statement I hear often, and it never makes any more sense. The character development for your party members, especially Garrus (which I will address in my next point) is far deeper than in the original, and for more characters. Take Miranda, for instance. When you first meet her, she's all to happy to talk about how she is "perfect". Start stripping away the layers, however (pun not intended), and you find that deep down she's far more insecure than she lets on, partly due to being forced to live up to her perceived "perfection" and also because despite all of her genetic modification, she's just as human and vulnerable to fear and doubt as anyone else. And she's typically used as an example of shallow characterization.
The reason behind Shepard helping his/her team with their problems is quite simple: the characters have mental baggage. We all know the feeling, those niggling doubts and worries in the backs of our heads. They'd like nothing more than to take care of those problems, but they're stuck on Shepard's ship. To continue using Miranda as an example, how well do you think she'd do if she went on a suicide mission while still worrying about her sister possibly being kidnapped? Pretty damn badly, in all likelihood. Shepard knows this, and so goes out of his/her way to assist (assuming you're trying to keep everyone alive).
Oh, and you can easily beat the game without having sex with anyone.
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And speaking of characters what the fuck happened to Garrus. He went from a young, inexperienced cop; to this badass jaded vigilante who's got half the underworld scared of him in what, two years? The hell? That's a pretty drastic change for me to swallow.
Actually, Garrus was hand-picked as a Spectre candidate. He tells you this in the first game. Add in the Turian's militaristic culture and the fact that C-Sec operatives are selected out of various armed forces, and he's hardly some cop fresh from the academy.
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Also what the FUCK, is up with Samara's loyalty mission and the choice at the end? Why is there even a choice? WHY WOULD YOU PICK THE MASS MURDERING SUCCUBUS GIRL WHO FUCKS PEOPLE TO DEATH AND REFUSES TO EVER STOP?! For any other reason than to be an evil prick? Why would any Shepard EVER do that? That's not even remotely heroic, at all, why would even a renegade do that?! That's not pragmatic, Samara is SWORN TO DO WHAT YOU TELL HER. HER EVIL DAUGHTER IS NOT. Sorry, but that scene just stuck in my head as so monumentally stupid and badly done.
Also quite simple. See, Samara may be following you, but she is not your "crew". She has her own oath to follow, and if you're playing a Renegade Shepard she'll flat-out tell you that after the mission is over, she'll try to kill you. Morinth may be crazy, but she knows that you can take her in a fight if she attempts to betray you. It can therefore be argued that Shepard is merely thinking ahead, killing a woman who is guaranteed to turn on him/her and going with someone who only "might" betray him/her.
Quote
Also, by plot missions aside from your quote... what? Plot missions ARE THE GAME. ME1 had generic side content? Yes, yes it did, and that could have used some work. But it was side content. Almost all of it was completely and utterly skippable and had no bearing on the main plot whatsoever. And the plot missions were varied, had you taking the fight to your foes in large, colorful, and varied areas. With fun setpieces and tension. Big shit was going down, and you had to save the day. Wheres the tension in two? You're just chilling in your ship, tooling around the galaxy. Waiting for something to happen so you can continue. You're not trying to progress things or solve the problem. You're letting other people call the shots and point you where to go, doing your investigating and tracking down your leads.
Four words: Noveria. Therum. Feros. Virmire.
Don't recognize them? Those are the plot missions from Mass Effect 1. Four. Each of them assigned to you by the Council, to track down clues for hunting down Saren. The exact same thing you accuse ME2 of doing.

The entire point of the second game is to build a team strong enough to fight the Collectors. You can't do it with just Jacob and Miranda. You must also gather intelligence on the Collectors and their connection to the Reapers, and find a way to get through the relay to fight them.
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There's barely any plot. It go down corridor, shoot mercenaries/geth/krogan , get teammate. Repeat until game says you can do some more plot. And then there's the loyalty missions Which are basically go down the corridor, shoot mercenaries/geth/krogan, talk out problem. Or kill your teammate, and trust the evil succubus daughter to not just disappear on you. (Can you tell how much that really REALLY got to me?)
Again, that's pretty much exactly how the first game was. ME1 had very well disguised corridors, but they were corridors nonetheless. Are you really not getting this?
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And the mining mini-game. Yeah, that's sooo much better then the Mako. That's definitely an approach that garnered more positive feedback.
You'd be surprised how many people loathed the Mako and were glad that it was gone. And at least the stuff you found in the mining game was actually useful, unlike those deposits of gold or cobalt that were in the middle of nowhere.
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And I didn't notice that many more different ways to play your personality in 2 then 1. You're given 3 options, nice, dick, and neutral, to varying degrees. With occasional special dick or nice moves. I suppose you could pick paragon options in conversations with teammates, and dick options to get things done. But that's not really intentional character depth on the developers part.
You never tried that, did you? Character dialog changes depending on what you say and to who. This is especially notable if you pull a 180 from game to game, with friends and enemies commenting on how you changed from a dick to a nice person.
Quote
And meaningful squad choice? When was it ever meaningful? Your teammates were useless 80% of the time unless you take an inordinate amount of time to baby them. And even then, They'll almost never use their powers, and if they do, they don't do it intelligently. The only use they ever had was having their powers in my hotbar. Not like they ever use em.
I'm starting to question if you ever played more than around 15 minutes of ME2, because that is patently false. Your allies will use their powers, use them frequently, and not waste them on enemies that are immune or low-priority. The only real exceptions are the ammo powers, and that's because they can potentially have more than one.

...aaaand it's after midnight, I have school in the morning, and I was planning on playing some Morrowind. Oh well.

Edited: How the hell did I mix up Samara and Morinth's names?  ???
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 04:12:19 am by Sirus »
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Viken

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #202 on: February 23, 2012, 04:06:10 am »

I've started going back over the Mass Effect games in preparation for ME3, myself.  At the moment, I'm probably about 60% done with ME1, and I have one thing to say: I HATE THE MAKO. 

It bounces, is hard to control, and while the terrian and planets you land on are cool, the resources and extras you find outside of mission objectives on the planets are totally useless besides for giving small EXP and credits. I have yet to find any reason to collect the medalions and notes.

I will say this, as well. I personally enjoy the modification system from ME1.  Sure, the weapons themselves were mostly clones of each other, each with progressively higher stats and whatnot; but I founds them (not to mention the greater armor selection) nice compared to the generic TPS system that ME2 has.  I've never been much of a shooter fan, anyway. I'm into it for the story and the RPG elements.

Finally, when has a person on our planet had a single original thought in the past two hundred years, really? Everyone copies atleast someone else, or bases their ideas or beliefs on something someone else already thought of.  Now that's some food for thought.  8)
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Darkmere

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #203 on: February 23, 2012, 04:40:59 am »

Kotor: nice/order alignment, you play well with others, get special persuasive dialog for your personality, and fill a blue bar with your goodness. Light side or Paragon? Same with Renegade/red/pragmatist/whatever. Biotics are very reminiscent of force powers with a few modifications. Throw, charge, lift. I will give them credit though, instead of a sliding scale from KotoR in ME you can fill both and pick and choose.

*I had this whole plot comparison typed up, but it sucked and was boring. Deleted for space and sanity concerns.

I'm still not sure how Tali had more depth when her most pressing issue was insomnia, than when she was embroiled in the politics of the entire quarian fleet. She didn't even have dialogue about her optional quest if she was there when you got the information she wanted.

Ashley from ME1: Racist heir to family shame has survival guilt. Also she can bone Shepard. Sure she has some stories about her past and family, but she does nothing in the game but talk about that and bone Shepard. If you do the r'ship, she does have one line of development on Ilos, where she says maybe aliens are right and humans are too impulsive. This didn't get saved though, in 2 even with that, she's still hatin' on the foreigners.

I also have no idea what the useless squadmate issue was, mine were generally competent, only used their powers on effective targets, and generally supported me when I needed. I suppose if you tried really hard to ignore that whole aspect of the game and never gave them orders, they'd eventually flounder. But it's a squad-based game, and the squad AI in one was barely worthy of the name. Seriously.

Mako: I think the terrain was more to blame than the transport. Nothing ground-based works on a planet full of sheer cliffs. Still wasn't heartbroken to see it go, though. Hammerhead wasn't much more engaging, but less rage-inducing, so a step up.

Gear customization in 1: I admit I liked the mod slots, but the choices were always between armor piercing or shredder, or maybe explosive. The rest were sub-par. Squad ammo powers handled this fine, without making me dig through inventory lists every mission to make sure I was using rank VIII and not rank VII of shredder ammo on that shotgun I don't use much. Same effect, less tedium. You can't honestly say armor was more varied, cooldown reduction or medical system? Oh, get rank 7 armor or mod and have both. "Choice" done.

I think that covers what I'd say that Sirus didn't. Is anyone still reading this monstrosity?  ???
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

NobodyPro

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #204 on: February 23, 2012, 04:46:18 am »

So I was thinking about my Renegade character and something hit me: how screwed is his Earth. He's basically been screwing ally after potential ally, if not outright killing them, in order to make humanity more powerful. In Mass Effect 3 the Reapers have shown themselves to be genre savvy by ripping the heart out of the human race by attacking Earth.
What has Pony achieved?
Isolated and slightly more powerful colonies with bitter allies. Good job breaking it hero.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And on From Ashes:
A god damned prothean! How could that not be necessary to the plot of the game! Why the hell is this Day 1 DLC and not some other character I don't care about.
EDIT:
The DLC prothean was in the leaked plot details from when the demo was originally leaked. As of that version of the Demo, he was a crucial character to the point. They have been working on this character for a while now, and while it is not clear if he is as important to the plot as he originally was, he was a character they had in mind from pretty much day one, which they are now scalping buyers over for a few more, so there is some justification to the uproar.

EDIT2:
The worst thing about these DLC companions is that they seemed to break the progression in Mass Effect 2. I don't think I actually downloaded Zaeed but he's apparently DLC so whatever, anyway his ridiculously easy introduction resulted in the first actual fight with the Collectors triggering one man early because they had to compensate for removed content.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:10:28 am by NobodyPro »
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Doomchild-

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #205 on: February 23, 2012, 05:18:28 am »

well, I guess I just got some good news and some bad news...
I bought the collectors edition last week so I'll be getting that dlc for free (well, relatively free). I was kinda upset that I had to sell my soul to EA and install Origin, but I guess there's worse things out there.
But all this talk about the dlc and the collector edition made me check several sites for information about the collectors edition and made me realise that N7 hoodie that made me say "f*** it I'll just go for the collectors edition" is an ingame item... don't know wether to be angry that it wasn't properly explained on the order form, happy that it gave me the dlc without telling me when I bought it or ashamed that it took me a week to figure out...

I'm currently replaying ME2 in preparation (I'd play ME1 as well but MAKO) and I noticed I'm still lacking 3 achievements, 'finish the game on insane' since hardcore is already challenging my sanity as it is, 'shoot 20 enemies after they're stunned by a melee hit'... I play an adept on hardcore difficulty... what is melee? and lastly: 'have a romance with a crewmember' proving Sirus' point that sex is optional and really just up to the players choice (unlike DA2 where companions seem invite themselves into Hawke's bed) but to be honest... I just stayed faithfull to Liara and no amount of achievements are going to tempt me ^^
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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #206 on: February 23, 2012, 04:35:41 pm »

Am I the only person who liked Mako? Also, Im too poor to buy special glitter extra dandy versions of the game, so Im going miss a frigging prothean?! The f***!? This is ten times worse than origin.
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Sirus

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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #207 on: February 23, 2012, 07:11:47 pm »

I liked the concept of the Mako. It was the ridiculous terrain on the random planets that killed it.
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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #208 on: February 23, 2012, 07:15:48 pm »

Some of those planets would have been awesome if they were flattened slighlty. One of them was almost impassable and when I got to the site I fought about 10 Thorian Creepers and got a codex update. Woo ::)
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Re: Mass Effect 3
« Reply #209 on: February 23, 2012, 08:56:19 pm »

Am I the only person who liked Mako? Also, Im too poor to buy special glitter extra dandy versions of the game, so Im going miss a frigging prothean?! The f***!? This is ten times worse than origin.

Mako was awesome. Never let anyone tell you different.

Am I the only person who thought their explanation for the Prothean DLC fiasco basically amounted to "we're crap writers." How could it not be hugely important to the plot? So you meet this hugely important quasi-mythological figure from before your race existed... oh welp wait on the ship dude I'll see you in the end cutscene!
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