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[CJ1145]

Nah, CJ1145, that's  not what would happen, what would happen is Shepard's mind being use as the base for the Human Reaper's mind, and him being the vanguard of the next invasion.

But right before the process is finished, MASSIVE CAVE IN. IN SPACE.

[KaguroDraven]

A Krogen divides by zero to cause said cave in?

Edit: Oh and also, it is awesome to find another person angry about the cut Neeshka romance and who romanced Tali. Call it bad luck, but one of my friends likes the elf chick, but then he likes elves in general, and liara.

[CJ1145]

The druid was a total bitch, can't even be arsed to remember her name. The only ones I do remember are Khelgar, Neeshka, Bishop, and Gnome Lennon.

[KaguroDraven]

Eh, it's not so much she was a bitch as she was a creepy stalker.
Also names are Khelgar, Neeshka, Bishop, Casiver, Ammon, Shandra, Construct, Qara, Sand(the king of snark), and I can't remember the elf's or the gnome's names.
Most of them where somewhat interesting, Sand Ammon and Neeshka being my favorates, and only OoM came close to that level of interesting characterisation, it's the only thing about NWN2 that beat it's expansion to me. Well that and running a keep, that was fun, wish it had been longer and handled a bit better though.

[CJ1145]

Oh right, I forgot Sand, he was cool. And Casavir was all right, if forgettable. And I don't remember the gnome's name either, hence Gnome Lennon.

[KaguroDraven]

Still, back on topic, Am I the only one who wants to at the very least be able to vist more homeworlds? We've seen Tuchanka, we're going to see earth. I want to see more homeworlds for some reason. I want to see what the planets every citidel species came from, Elcor and Volus can be left out due to the extenuateing cercomstances. Also, Rachni helping in some form against the Reapers or something else if you let them live.

[The Worst Gamer]

If I didn't have better things to spend my money on (like Mass Effect 3 roflcopter swoi swoi swoi herp derp) I'd give it a shot. Also, my computer has this whole thing that it refuses to play old games. It'd have to be damn good (and I mean DAMN good, not "Your opinion makes it seem like the Second Coming, but it's actually a bit bland in comparison" good) for me to go through all that trouble to play it.

It is one of the most recommended RPGs of all time, it invented the "cutscene spell" (or at least it's the first Western RPG to use it), it started off the whole "start with a pre-made character, choose how his destiny unfolds your way" that Bioware has taken. Etc etc.

Sometimes limitations, however, force you to think outside the box and make decisions that ultimately benefit the experience. Garrus, for example, wouldn't be nearly as interesting a character for me if he was such an easy convert to the ideals of ParaShep. Instead, he's naturally resistant, as his own nature pulls him towards the Renegade side of the Karma Meter. But through example and good leadership, Shepard can show him there's a better way; but it's not easy, and takes two games worth of work to get any lasting improvement.

If they'd let me make him a Paragon team player in the first game and let his character stay flat like that through the sequel, that would have been horrible. Planescape, as far as I know, didn't have a sequel. Mass Effect is stretching the story over 3 full-length games. That gives it far more time to develop its characters; Planescape let you wrap everything up in one game, but if we handled every last problem in the first Mass Effect it'd leave us with 2 games of no development whatsoever.

I don't see where you're going with this.

If I had unlimited resources and unlimited time, I'd've made it so that your actions in the first game had either made him marginally better or far, far worse (depending on how depressing you want to go). So, if you encouraged renegade, you make him be a bit harsh, but not too bad. If you encourage paragon, he becomes a real monster because he's rebelling against what you taught him. After all, you died.

As it stands, what they've done is, "Uhhh, how can we not have to spend as much money / time doing seperate sidequests for each path? I know, let's make it so that players didn't effect the game that much in the first installment!"

This is one of the major troubles with voice acting, along with how much space it takes up.

For the purposes of this argument, Black Isle and Obsidian have been lumped together, because I sure as hell don't see Black Isle doing anything lately, do you?

Coincidentally, Alpha Protocol sucked pretty hard. Not from lack of content this time, the mechanics were just awful.

How about you go play some of Troika Games' games? They were also a split off faction from Black Isle, and they also produced amazing but flawed games (Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil).

Never played Alpha Protocol.

She states that she wants to free the galaxy of the Force, but she is Dark-Sider all the way. From the very beginning she's a lying, manipulating bitch who pulls strings, tricks people, and uses zombie wookiee assassins to do whatever the hell she wants. She is the epitome of a Sith Lord, whether she (and the writers) realize it or not. Also, surpassing morality doesn't turn you into a dick; that's falling to the lower side of morality.

You don't get the concept at all. It's Nietzsche, man.

Gameplay mechanics? Barely, and if they weren't I'd have to personally kill everyone at Obsidian, considering it's a sequel and all.

Characterization? Somewhat. Several of the characters in KotOR II were better than several in KotOR I, but I didn't feel nearly as attached to any of them. Except Atton, because I'm always buds with my Lancers, and all the returning party members because I'm still riding the nostalgia wave. The only new party member I genuinely liked was Mira, and she fell flat pretty quick. And Kreia's no Jolee Bindo.

They're better by an unbelievable degree. I replayed Knights of the Old Republic 2 a year ago, and then played KotOR after I finished it. I was sickened by the trouble with the game mechanics in number 1. It just felt so clunky.

I know you're never going to play Planescape, so screw you. :p

What do you mean? The only way that happens in Mass Effect 2 is if you roleplay Commander Shepard as a total retard. I only lost 1 character on my first run, Zaeed, and every other time I pulled everyone through. And I got a Tali romance in the sequel, so the Neeshka thing's a moot point here.

Actually, you have to play Shepherd like a manipulative bitch who is so paranoid he upgrades everything. Manipulate crewmembers that you want with you, mainly.

So, what do you want us to do? Me, talk about how Mass Effect is better than games I haven't played, while you say Planescape is better than games you irrationally hate?

I don't hate Mass Effect. I hate how big it is in the industry because, seriously, it's not that good. I also hate Bioware's "we make great storylines" bullcrap.

Go play Planescape Torment. Seriously, you don't realise how big a thing you're missing out on. Ask anyone.

They don't have bad writers so much as you have poor grasp of intricacy. I'm certain Planescape has its gems about it, but honestly I think you're just advertising now. You stopped giving credible reasons for why Mass Effect is a bad game when... oh wait, you never started.

I never said it was a bad game. =p

I said it had poor characterisation and storyline.

Which is true.

And you might not want to play the Mass Effect games. Endings where the good guys win seem to be off-putting to you. Unless there's a massive cave in right before Shepard kills the Reapers or something; if there is, I'll let you know.

lulwat.

Anyway, I've tried to avoid anything that might be construed as an ad hominem attack, but I have to say this: You seem to be the epitome of fanboy. You've taken personal offence at everything I've said about the games ("You hates Bioware and Mass Effect AND AMERICA!"), you've refused to listen to anything I've said ("It's not true, no way it's true, I'm not listening to your crap!"), you're accusing me of advertising for Black Isle despite them not even really existing anymore and you just seem to be emotionally involved with Bioware's games which is, quite honestly, VERY creepy.

That is all.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Technically, what he's saying about KoTOR2 is right, but he's making the mistake of attributing its problems to Obsidian rather than the material it was working with to start with. Yes, in the Star Wars universe Kreia is an unrepentant villain, because Star Wars operates on only the most childish black and white morality, thanks to that whiny asshole hack Lucas, and the last leg of KoTOR2 is unfinished and shitty because Lucas Arts wanted it released earlier. They also had to use the lightside ending of KoTOR as cannon, because Lucas requires that every story in the EU end with the heroes triumphing, or at least not losing completely if it needs a cliffhanger to better sell a sequel.


Now, I've enjoyed Obsidian's games, though I've only played KoTOR2 and NWN2, but both were flawed and buggy, and I know at least the first of those was forced out the door quite unfinished. I've liked everything Bioware's put out since NWN better though (I never did play the first KoTOR though). NWN was a solid game, Jade Empire was good and unique despite its simplicity, Dragon Age is a brutal subversion of mainstream high fantasy (and yes, I'm sure there have been authors who also did that, so what? Are they all unoriginal hacks except for whoever used that general theme first?) and Mass Effect is only slightly kinder to its own genre.

Sometimes limitations, however, force you to think outside the box and make decisions that ultimately benefit the experience. Garrus, for example, wouldn't be nearly as interesting a character for me if he was such an easy convert to the ideals of ParaShep. Instead, he's naturally resistant, as his own nature pulls him towards the Renegade side of the Karma Meter. But through example and good leadership, Shepard can show him there's a better way; but it's not easy, and takes two games worth of work to get any lasting improvement.

If they'd let me make him a Paragon team player in the first game and let his character stay flat like that through the sequel, that would have been horrible. Planescape, as far as I know, didn't have a sequel. Mass Effect is stretching the story over 3 full-length games. That gives it far more time to develop its characters; Planescape let you wrap everything up in one game, but if we handled every last problem in the first Mass Effect it'd leave us with 2 games of no development whatsoever.

I don't see where you're going with this.

If I had unlimited resources and unlimited time, I'd've made it so that your actions in the first game had either made him marginally better or far, far worse (depending on how depressing you want to go). So, if you encouraged renegade, you make him be a bit harsh, but not too bad. If you encourage paragon, he becomes a real monster because he's rebelling against what you taught him. After all, you died.

The hell does that make sense? If you encouraged him to shoot the doctor in the first game, you're just reaffirming the decisions he already made, and if you stop him from doing so you are not letting the doctor go, but sending him off to spend the rest of his life in a cell, which doesn't really apply to any of his actions in the sequel. I'd say compared to some trivial, informal advice you give him in the first game, any events both before and after his time on the Normandy SR1 would be far more influential on how he acts. The issue of whether or not to kill his former comrade for selling out when he had a gun to his head would probably have more of an impact, but then again, just like the first game it's a single isolated event. A single event can lead someone to radically alter their behavior, or it could just be reasoned away with "well, given the context, that was the right way to act; this is different, thus requires different action," which is far more realistic a reaction than "OH GOD I WAS WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING BECAUSE ONE SITUATION WAS KIND OF COMPLEX TO DEAL WITH NOW I MUST BE SOMEONE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!"

Actually, you have to play Shepherd like a manipulative bitch who is so paranoid he upgrades everything. Manipulate crewmembers that you want with you, mainly.

What? You're explicitly told, repeatedly, to do everything possible to stack the odds in your favor. Upgrading everything you possibly can follows that logically. Going out of your way to throw your crew into extremely difficult, emotional situations a little less so, though in most of the cases it's "oh shit, this just happened, I've really got to deal with this before we all go off to die," so it naturally follows that they're going to be either resentful that you ignored them, or distracted by the unresolved business, and thus not on their best game.

What do you mean? The only way that happens in Mass Effect 2 is if you roleplay Commander Shepard as a total retard. I only lost 1 character on my first run, Zaeed, and every other time I pulled everyone through. And I got a Tali romance in the sequel, so the Neeshka thing's a moot point here.

How does getting to fuck a (possibly anteater shaped) space gypsy that's deathly allergic to literally everything, especially you, make up for not getting the demon chick? Admittedly Neeshka probably smelled like sulfur, being a tiefling and all, but considering you could play a tiefling yourself...

[KaguroDraven]

I have no idea how it makes up for it, but I like both characters and am still disappointed I didn't get to romance Neeshka, hell I'm almost tempted to search for mods for that alone.
Also, yes Star Wars is completely and utterly black and white, but let's be honest here, sometimes it is nice to have the simplicity of who is the bad guy and who isn't. I do much prefer more grey situations, but sometimes black and white is nice. Protraying Kreia as even semi-heroic in said universe in a mistake, period.
Other than that I agree with the rest of your rant Sir Psydonymous.

[CJ1145]

It is one of the most recommended RPGs of all time, it invented the "cutscene spell" (or at least it's the first Western RPG to use it), it started off the whole "start with a pre-made character, choose how his destiny unfolds your way" that Bioware has taken. Etc etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cutscene spell", and I'd have to play the game to see how the protagonist stacks up to Memetic Badass Commander Shepard.

I don't see where you're going with this.

If I had unlimited resources and unlimited time, I'd've made it so that your actions in the first game had either made him marginally better or far, far worse (depending on how depressing you want to go). So, if you encouraged renegade, you make him be a bit harsh, but not too bad. If you encourage paragon, he becomes a real monster because he's rebelling against what you taught him. After all, you died.

Except Garrus freaking loved Shepard. He saw him as a mentor and a bit of a father figure too. Without Shepard's guidance, he backslides for a while, but he never wanted to rebel. The point is, the only reason Garrus changed is because he was trying to learn from you, not that you forced it on him. Therefore, Renegade would support the ideals he already has, and do little to change him. Paragon, on the other hand, would be much more conflicting, and a change of any sort would take a lot of work.

And of course, you say you'd do this if you had unlimited resources and time, while BioWare had neither. That's like saying "If I had the powers of God I'd have done a better job than our last president." Of COURSE you would have, you'd have been God! Try being put into the exact same situation instead of giving yourself such a massive handicap in your favor.

As it stands, what they've done is, "Uhhh, how can we not have to spend as much money / time doing seperate sidequests for each path? I know, let's make it so that players didn't effect the game that much in the first installment!"

This is one of the major troubles with voice acting, along with how much space it takes up.

Why do you need separate sidequests for the paths for the characters? It's much simpler, and more realistic, to approach the same situation different ways to have different outcomes. If you want branching paths based on morality, Admiral Hackett's missions cover that spectrum.

And face it, without voice acting Mass Effect wouldn't have been nearly as powerful a game. The delivery of the lines really does add more character to the cast than text ever would.

How about you go play some of Troika Games' games? They were also a split off faction from Black Isle, and they also produced amazing but flawed games (Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil).

Never played Alpha Protocol.

Ugh, don't talk to me about Bloodlines, that game disgusted me. Don't really know why. From start to finish I felt like I had just drank a jug of wine, and not in the drunk way, the "oh God there's gonna be a wine-splosion" way.

Arcanum was great, but like you said flawed. And it didn't really leave an impact on me, when I hear Virgil my first thought is still Static Shock. And then I think of Vigil. From Mass Effect.

You don't get the concept at all. It's Nietzsche, man.

I'm sensing a disturbance. It appears somebody doesn't know their shit. Kreia is not like Nietzsche at all; he was an existentialist and she a nihilist. The term you're looking for is Nietzsche Wannabe, where a character tries to act melodramatic about the doom of all life, how we're all just nothing in the grand scheme, and all that sort of rot. And Kreia doesn't even fit that description very well; she halfway does, but the other half is full-on evil. The description of the Dark Side in Star Wars almost perfectly matches what Kreia does; in a way it makes her a deeper character.

Think about it, for all her hatred of the force, and choosing a side of the spectrum, and the foolishness of the Sith way, she embraces it in a way no one has ever been able to, up until the very end blind to her own hypocrisy. That's either some really good writing, or some really bad writing on Obsidian's part.

They're better by an unbelievable degree. I replayed Knights of the Old Republic 2 a year ago, and then played KotOR after I finished it. I was sickened by the trouble with the game mechanics in number 1. It just felt so clunky.

I know you're never going to play Planescape, so screw you. :p

The gameplay mechanics? Bah, the only thing they improved on was adding unarmed combat, some new force powers, and letting you jump in the Swoop races. The rest was as clunky as ever.

Actually, you have to play Shepherd like a manipulative bitch who is so paranoid he upgrades everything. Manipulate crewmembers that you want with you, mainly.

So wanting the best equipment possible to take on an enemy that blew up your last ship in several minutes makes you a "paranoid bitch"? Now you're just hating for hate's sake. And wanting to help your crew members with their problems makes you a manipulative bitch? If there's any third party with enough self-loathing to read through this whole argument, could you tell me if that's as stupid as I think it is?

I don't hate Mass Effect. I hate how big it is in the industry because, seriously, it's not that good. I also hate Bioware's "we make great storylines" bullcrap.

The only problem is, every complaint you seem to have with Mass Effect is either due to your hatred of it being successful, your hatred of BioWare, or totally unfounded. You've already proven you have a tendency to warp any part of the game to make it look as bad as possibly when really you're just being loony. I love the Mass Effect games, and apparently that makes you a very angry person.

Go play Planescape Torment. Seriously, you don't realise how big a thing you're missing out on. Ask anyone.

You make it sound like I can't enjoy both games.

I never said it was a bad game. =p

I said it had poor characterisation and storyline.

Which is true.

And considering that's the biggest point of Mass Effect you're indirectly calling it a bad game. I point I disagree on highly.

ALSO, YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY QUESTION. HOW MUCH OF THE MASS EFFECT GAMES HAVE YOU PLAYED?

lulwat.

Anyway, I've tried to avoid anything that might be construed as an ad hominem attack, but I have to say this: You seem to be the epitome of fanboy. You've taken personal offence at everything I've said about the games ("You hates Bioware and Mass Effect AND AMERICA!"), you've refused to listen to anything I've said ("It's not true, no way it's true, I'm not listening to your crap!"), you're accusing me of advertising for Black Isle despite them not even really existing anymore and you just seem to be emotionally involved with Bioware's games which is, quite honestly, VERY creepy.

That is all.

Congratulations, man, that wasn't an ad hominem attack: that was a full-out, personal attack against my character. I'm personally a little insulted you'd resort to this sort of mudslinging on an online forum. Let's break this down, ok?

You seem to be the epitome of fanboy.

Ah, but so untrue. I love the Mass Effect games and enjoy Dragon Age and KotOR. BioWare is nowhere near my favorite company, if I even have one. If you want me to give you a list of every single complaint I have about Mass Effect I'll gladly do so on request.

You've taken personal offence at everything I've said about the games ("You hates Bioware and Mass Effect AND AMERICA!")

So untrue, it hurts. I've learned through experience that getting offended over online arguments is a waste of my energy. Any supposed offense you see is likely for the sake of the argument. You can dislike BioWare, but when you dislike it for a reason I disagree with I feel I have a right to debate that point.

you've refused to listen to anything I've said ("It's not true, no way it's true, I'm not listening to your crap!")

Once again, false mudslinging. I've listened to everything you've said, I just happen to believe you're wrong. If you take that as me being a whiny baby who can't accept the truth, well, I'm thinking that points to a bit of an ego.

you're accusing me of advertising for Black Isle despite them not even really existing anymore

Oh man, you're almost as bad as Jhessail. Listen, absurd comments are kind of my thing, friend. A sense of humor is vital when holding a conversation with me, because even the serious points are going to have jokes laced in at times. I was hoping you'd be able to tell I was joking in that line with the whole "rape simulator" crack, but I guess not. It must be depressing to take everything so seriously.

and you just seem to be emotionally involved with Bioware's games which is, quite honestly, VERY creepy.

Uh, how? What the hell are you talking about, the comment about the Tali romance? Talking about the characterization of your crew? Listen, my ratings for RPGs are highly based on immersion, and Mass Effect works for me in that way. When I'm playing they make me care about the characters, like a good book or movie should. You, being you of course, seem to have the idea stuck in your head that this care stays with me when I shut off the game. They're not real, dude, they're bits of code doing what they're programmed to do. When I'm talking about the deep actions available in the game, I'm doing so in a critical sense, trying to appreciate the true magnitude of the games I played.

You should be a little ashamed of yourself after that last paragraph. All it's done is show you to be a person very quick to throw accusations with no backing, and then try to hammer in the idea that your opponent is some sort of creep with no life. (At least, that's the only explanation I can come up with, for that last part)

How does getting to fuck a (possibly anteater shaped) space gypsy that's deathly allergic to literally everything, especially you, make up for not getting the demon chick? Admittedly Neeshka probably smelled like sulfur, being a tiefling and all, but considering you could play a tiefling yourself...

They sort of fill the same niche of shy girly girl who also kicks your ass. It's also a point for BioWare, because it proves that they listened to their fans clamoring for a Tali romance. As opposed to Obsidian, who half-finish games and never look back. At least they're trying to patch New Vegas, so I guess that's a point for them, but...

Oh wait, I forgot to respond to this:

Technically, what he's saying about KoTOR2 is right, but he's making the mistake of attributing its problems to Obsidian rather than the material it was working with to start with. Yes, in the Star Wars universe Kreia is an unrepentant villain, because Star Wars operates on only the most childish black and white morality, thanks to that whiny asshole hack Lucas, and the last leg of KoTOR2 is unfinished and shitty because Lucas Arts wanted it released earlier. They also had to use the lightside ending of KoTOR as cannon, because Lucas requires that every story in the EU end with the heroes triumphing, or at least not losing completely if it needs a cliffhanger to better sell a sequel.

Lucas aside, Star Wars was founded on the principles of Black and White morality. Even if it wasn't, Kreia's characterization still puts her heavily into the evil side of any sensible scale of morality. I am an idealistic person, so I find that every once in a while a Black and White story is refreshing. Sometimes it's nice to be simple, but of course Obsidian couldn't deal with that and had to physically violate my childhood memories, but that's a story for another time.

And KotOR II's Dark Side ending is canon, if it makes you feel any better. Besides, we all know if Revan had stayed dark the galaxy would never have recovered to the state the Republic is in by the movies. That guy builds stuff to last.

[Gantolandon]

If I didn't have better things to spend my money on (like Mass Effect 3 roflcopter swoi swoi swoi herp derp) I'd give it a shot. Also, my computer has this whole thing that it refuses to play old games. It'd have to be damn good (and I mean DAMN good, not "Your opinion makes it seem like the Second Coming, but it's actually a bit bland in comparison" good) for me to go through all that trouble to play it.

It actually is damn good. Of course, the graphics was somewhat bad even in 1999 when it got released, but the rest really shines. This was the first game I know when your companions were not mute grunts and in fact participate in your conversations. And if they disagreed, they really meant it, not only whine about it and become convinced after one talk.

As for the immersion part, it doesn't have ME cutscenes (obviously). Instead it has dialogues which not only describe what a NPC says, but also what happens. When you talk to the food merchant, for example, you can actually taste things he sells. There are many conversations and paths that don't advance the story at all, but provide immersion.

[CJ1145]

It actually is damn good. Of course, the graphics was somewhat bad even in 1999 when it got released, but the rest really shines. This was the first game I know when your companions were not mute grunts and in fact participate in your conversations. And if they disagreed, they really meant it, not only whine about it and become convinced after one talk.

As for the immersion part, it doesn't have ME cutscenes (obviously). Instead it has dialogues which not only describe what a NPC says, but also what happens. When you talk to the food merchant, for example, you can actually taste things he sells. There are many conversations and paths that don't advance the story at all, but provide immersion.

That's all fine, and I'm glad it strove to be more than your run of the mill RPG, but the man goes on and on like Planescape invented the terms "immersion", "character development", and "fun". I'm not debating that it's good, but I think people are filtering this game through nostalgia goggles pretty hard.

[Ephemeriis]

That's all fine, and I'm glad it strove to be more than your run of the mill RPG, but the man goes on and on like Planescape invented the terms "immersion", "character development", and "fun". I'm not debating that it's good, but I think people are filtering this game through nostalgia goggles pretty hard.

Planescape: Torment is honestly one of those games that you must play if you're going to talk critically about any other RPG, ever, and have any kind of credibility at all.

Planescape: Torment was a truly revolutionary game.  It pretty much marks the transition of the computer RPG genre from pure hack & slash like the old SSI D&D games or the old Might & Magic titles to something oriented around a storyline.  The change from roll playing to role playing, if you will.

It wasn't actually the first RPG to have a compelling storyline and interesting characters...  But it was the game that introduced such things to the gaming public at large.  It was the first RPG that really focused on the storyline, that saw any kind of large-scale sales. 

Seriously.  Talking about character development and storylines in the Mass Effect series, without having played Planescape: Torment is simply ridiculous.

I like the Mass Effect games.  I think they're good games.  I'm looking forward to ME3.  But they aren't the best thing ever, and they certainly didn't invent or even revolutionize a genre.

[CJ1145]

Planescape: Torment is honestly one of those games that you must play if you're going to talk critically about any other RPG, ever, and have any kind of credibility at all.

Planescape: Torment was a truly revolutionary game.  It pretty much marks the transition of the computer RPG genre from pure hack & slash like the old SSI D&D games or the old Might & Magic titles to something oriented around a storyline.  The change from roll playing to role playing, if you will.

It wasn't actually the first RPG to have a compelling storyline and interesting characters...  But it was the game that introduced such things to the gaming public at large.  It was the first RPG that really focused on the storyline, that saw any kind of large-scale sales. 

Seriously.  Talking about character development and storylines in the Mass Effect series, without having played Planescape: Torment is simply ridiculous.

I like the Mass Effect games.  I think they're good games.  I'm looking forward to ME3.  But they aren't the best thing ever, and they certainly didn't invent or even revolutionize a genre.

This is the sort of post that actually pushes me away from Planescape. I haven't even heard anything bad about the game. The closest is some mild criticism that then gets put through the infamous "fanboy logic" wringer and comes out even more praise than there was for the game to begin with. To me, that says somebody's hiding some big faults, or there's a bunch of little ones that got swept under the rug by the aforementioned nostalgia goggles.

I've never claimed any of those things about Mass Effect. I just like the games, and appreciate all the work that goes into them. I'm just here talking with a guy who seems to think that the games are shit for reasons that frankly make no sense, and aren't even grounded in reality a lot of the time.

[Gantolandon]

This is the sort of post that actually pushes me away from Planescape. I haven't even heard anything bad about the game. The closest is some mild criticism that then gets put through the infamous "fanboy logic" wringer and comes out even more praise than there was for the game to begin with. To me, that says somebody's hiding some big faults, or there's a bunch of little ones that got swept under the rug by the aforementioned nostalgia goggles.

There is a third possibility - the game has its shortcomings, but people who praise the game don't consider them as such or they are very minor to them. For example, the long dialogues were actually seen as a flaw, because most of the game's interesting things are happening there.

Also, combat. It is in the game, of course, but it's not as important as in most RPGs. If you have quest to get an item stolen by a bandit, killing him gives you minuscule XP comparing to resolving the situation using dialogue tree (intimidation, bribery, lies, etc). It's much better to create a character with high INT, CHA and WIS. Playing a dumb fighter will really limit the fun you can get from this game.

And there is, of course, the game world which is a huge deterrent for many gamers. Some got hooked - those are usually the guys who are praising the game. Some went "WTF?!" and quickly tossed the game aside. It's unlikely that they still remember this game after ten years, hence the lack of negative opinions.