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[Sir Pseudonymous]

But there was only the one Collector ship, and it got destroyed in straight-up combat by a stealth frigate. If anything it appears to be inferior to a regular Alliance Cruiser.

Exept in ME1 we can see a big fleet pounding at a SINGLE reaper ineffectively, and have the normandy dish out the damage that destroyed it in one shot. I guess the missle was loaded with a Shepard ball or something.

The collector ship was quite clearly not a reaper. The collector ship had to be taken out with a giant fucking cannon. The reaper was killed with small arms fire.

Obviously it all comes down to what's most effective from a plot/storyline/gameplay perspective.

If a ship needs to be indestructible, it will be.

If a ship needs to be destroyed, it will be.

But...

But there was only the one Collector ship, and it got destroyed in straight-up combat by a stealth frigate. If anything it appears to be inferior to a regular Alliance Cruiser.

The Collector ship absolutely destroyed the Normandy in the opening scene.  Sure, it took a couple shots...  But only because the Normandy was so nimble.  Instead of just standing still and getting vaporized, Joker had that ship dancing around and trying to dodge shots.  Which just prolonged the inevitable.  That Collector weapon had absolutely no trouble slicing clean through the Normandy.

I'm not sure what to classify the Normandy II as...  Is it still a stealth frigate?  It's still got the stealth thing going on, but it's much bigger.

It's got the absolute best that Cerberus can afford, which is apparently quite a bit better than what the Alliance uses.  Comments to that effect are made repeatedly.  So the new, improved, vastly superior to Alliance technology Normandy II is able to take down a single Collector ship...  But it isn't an easy fight.  And if you don't upgrade the Normandy II even further you wind up suffering some heavy losses during the fight.

And then there's those laser drone things that attack the Normandy II before you even get to the fight with the Collector ship...  They do some serious damage to the Normandy II, and they're very agile.  A larger ship, or a fleet, would have a very hard time dealing with a swarm of those.

I don't have a hard time seeing the Collectors giving the Alliance a real run for their money.

The Normandy SR2 was 2-3 times the size of the original, if I remember correctly. Not that I have any idea of the scale of the various classes...


The collector ship, aside from ultimately being destroyed by a (comparatively) small ship, was also severely damaged by a ground-based anti-air battery. They were also not seen to have more than one, though it's possible that there more docked at the station beyond the relay, which was also the only way to or from their base, meaning it could easily be picketed, leaving them unable to assemble a fleet (if they even had one) outside it.

[Gabeux]

Anyone watched Star Trek (the new movie, whatever it's called)
The beginning looks soo much like ME2 intro...sorry for that, well anyways:

I really liked the story/mystery/codex/atmosphere of ME1, but in both ME1 and ME2 I didn't have much fun in gameplay.
It always felt slow and the combat wasn't always fun.. When I was getting the feeling of "fuck yeah I can kill a thousand more of this", the combat would end and I was back at the ship.

The only thing I really like is the sci-fi setting and the mystery behind the game, but in ME2 I started to get pissed of that a single ship could do whatever it liked.
I don't care that they have better tech, the whole galaxy saw what happened in ME1, and then the council decided to forget about the reapers and shit, and everyone will sit their assess on some space bar looking at some asari ass.
That doesn't make any fucking sense to me.

ME1 I ran around talking to people, in ME2 I ran around getting squad mates, in ME3 I will have to rally the races to help and defeat the reapers/save earth.

Don't get me wrong, I still like ME universe a lot, but the plot is just dumb.
There, I said it..

[CJ1145]

It's nice and convenient how it's supposedly a homage and a subversion of all that and yet somehow still completely manages to do what every other science fiction universe has been doing for the past few decades.

I've seen some fantasy elements go into the nitty gritty of how real "Fair Folk" and other fantasy races and such would do, but the closest I've ever seen science fiction come is Firefly, the Well World series (but I'm not too far into that) and and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but that's more a straight-up parody. It's not "original" in that it hasn't changed sci fi forever, but it fucking fantastic and builds a much better universe than most can ever hope to. And as a Sci-Fi video game it's practically unparalleled.

See, Planescape was a subversion and a homage to the concept of RPGs and adventuring as a whole. It was amusing, referential and subversive in it's goals and yet still managed to be a completely unique and original game experience. You can see the same elements in Arcanum, as it takes the typical "technology versus magic" (in which technology is evil for some reason) concepts and turns them completely upside down with it being more of a cultural war than anything else. Fallout was a homage to the concept of a nuclear apocalypse and all the trite stories of the 50s and 60s that manages to stand up on it's own two feet whilst being a complete deconstruction of all those concepts.

Fallout, like Hitchhiker's Guide, I'd place more in the parody and deconstruction zones than any sort of homage. If it is, it's the single most bitter and snarky homage I have ever seen. I also had a lot of trouble giving a shit about any of the characters; the first Fallout character I felt any genuine, non-RP sympathy for was Boone. Mass Effect, on the other hand, really does a fantastic job at making believable characters, enjoyable at the very least and downright stellar at best.

Planescape I can agree on, though Arcanum was not quite a sell for me.

You have to actually change key elements in order to be able to use the "Well, it's a homage, not a rip off!" excuse. Bioware does this all the time, and it's quite honestly hilarious.

It does; but then you point to subversions of entirely other genres and say BioWare's attempt doesn't count.

I know you're not going to listen to me (yet another BioWare fanboy falling to the marketting machine), but all this is true. No "Hero's Journey" or "homage to other stories" or anything like that will change the fact that BioWare's writers are pretty hacky and Black Isle always had the superior story writers.

A little bitter, are we? *wiggles eyebrows in amusement* Marketing machine is an interesting concept; to be a victim of that one must be aware of the marketing before purchasing the game, correct? In that case I am merely a fan who came across an interesting looking game, played the hell out of it but stopped, then once the sequel came out realized how amazing the series was. I like how you assume that because I enjoy a game you so violently object to, I am obviously some rabid fanboy with no taste. I REALLY like how you then talk about the fantastic talents of Black Isle's writers. While they were decent, it doesn't mean shit until they can release a game more than 70% complete. Unlike most companies (such as BioWare, go figure) whose talents grow in time, Black Isle and its demonic lovechild Obsidian have actually become worse programmers as time has gone on, to the point that several of their games lack endings, and the others lack beginnings and middles. You bash one company while ignoring its good points, while praising another and ignoring its faults.

[The Worst Gamer]

I've seen some fantasy elements go into the nitty gritty of how real "Fair Folk" and other fantasy races and such would do, but the closest I've ever seen science fiction come is Firefly, the Well World series (but I'm not too far into that) and and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but that's more a straight-up parody. It's not "original" in that it hasn't changed sci fi forever, but it fucking fantastic and builds a much better universe than most can ever hope to. And as a Sci-Fi video game it's practically unparalleled.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

Fallout, like Hitchhiker's Guide, I'd place more in the parody and deconstruction zones than any sort of homage. If it is, it's the single most bitter and snarky homage I have ever seen. I also had a lot of trouble giving a shit about any of the characters; the first Fallout character I felt any genuine, non-RP sympathy for was Boone. Mass Effect, on the other hand, really does a fantastic job at making believable characters, enjoyable at the very least and downright stellar at best.

Planescape I can agree on, though Arcanum was not quite a sell for me.

I never really enjoyed the characters in Mass Effect. They seemed like they were just taking cliches from other genres. (Or possibly cliches from other science-fiction settings that took them from those genres.) Garrus is a film noir detective, Liara is an adventure girl archaeologist etc.

I have to say, though, that Mass Effect's characterisation was far more consistant than Dragon Age's MPD characters, which is something I can respect.

It does; but then you point to subversions of entirely other genres and say BioWare's attempt doesn't count.

I don't know what you're saying here, again, but I think I was being less than clear.

What I mean is that BioWare often uses really hacky excuses ("It's the Hero's Journey, not a copy and paste plot!", "It's a homage to another series, not a blatant rip off!" etc) to try and shove off accusations of their writing crew being pretty bad. It gets even better when I hear these same excuses used in defence of Final Fantasy games, the Inheritance Trilogy, Twilight, various other Mary Sue filled stories.

A little bitter, are we? *wiggles eyebrows in amusement* Marketing machine is an interesting concept; to be a victim of that one must be aware of the marketing before purchasing the game, correct? In that case I am merely a fan who came across an interesting looking game, played the hell out of it but stopped, then once the sequel came out realized how amazing the series was. I like how you assume that because I enjoy a game you so violently object to, I am obviously some rabid fanboy with no taste. I REALLY like how you then talk about the fantastic talents of Black Isle's writers. While they were decent, it doesn't mean shit until they can release a game more than 70% complete. Unlike most companies (such as BioWare, go figure) whose talents grow in time, Black Isle and its demonic lovechild Obsidian have actually become worse programmers as time has gone on, to the point that several of their games lack endings, and the others lack beginnings and middles. You bash one company while ignoring its good points, while praising another and ignoring its faults.

Which is entirely how you know about early game marketing or about how the series was originally set out to be a homage? Your story is already getting tangled, and you only did one lie.

To be honest, all of Black Isle's games were complete on release. And I'll happily admit that the former Black Isle employees in Obsidian etc have, due to a lack of funding back up, industry punch and various other things that BioWare has, released games that have amazing storylines but are usually incomplete. Those games still blow Bioware's games out of the water. Take a look at Knights of the Old Repbublic 1 and 2. If 2 had been complete (which a lot of mods have gotten it close to), it would've been far, far, far better than the original. I still consider it the superior game without mods.

Anyway, I feel like quoting a Black Isle employee who I can't remember the name of. He said, "Bioware did the musclework, Black Isle did the finesse." Essentially, Bioware made the game engines and Black Isle made the games.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Mandalore Movies got a parody up pretty fast.

[CJ1145]

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

Peeking ahead, this seems to be code for "I can't refute this" but I'll humor you. I said exactly what I said. Mass Effect isn't original in the storytelling aspects, or the characters; it's original in how it uses those elements to their fullest potential. And while some fantasy games have done a better job, Mass Effect is in my opinion by far the leader in sci fi.

I never really enjoyed the characters in Mass Effect. They seemed like they were just taking cliches from other genres. (Or possibly cliches from other science-fiction settings that took them from those genres.) Garrus is a film noir detective, Liara is an adventure girl archaeologist etc.

I have to say, though, that Mass Effect's characterisation was far more consistant than Dragon Age's MPD characters, which is something I can respect.

Like I said, it takes those pre-conceived notions and then subverts them. Garrus was a renegade cop and detective, like you say, but you get the opportunity to show him that his way isn't always right; a level head and calm approach can be superior to his shoot first ask later mentality, and go back to being a by the book cop. But it gets better: without your influence, he backslides into his old mentality. This really humanizes the character, for lack of a better term. It shows that those drastic personality changes games try to pull off just aren't going to happen in the real world; some people just can't keep it up. The next time around, teaching him to respect procedure is much more difficult and not so complete a change.

Liara goes under much character development between games as well, the loss of Shepard and her hunt for him forcing her to become a cold, efficient information broker. But bits of the old her still shine through on occasion. To me, these are far more memorable than the one and two-note characters from the Fallout games, which are my biggest exposure to Black Isle, Icewind Dale II being the only other one I played extensively.

I don't know what you're saying here, again, but I think I was being less than clear.

What I mean is that BioWare often uses really hacky excuses ("It's the Hero's Journey, not a copy and paste plot!", "It's a homage to another series, not a blatant rip off!" etc) to try and shove off accusations of their writing crew being pretty bad. It gets even better when I hear these same excuses used in defence of Final Fantasy games, the Inheritance Trilogy, Twilight, various other Mary Sue filled stories.

I could go on all day about how wrong you are comparing Mass Effect to the likes of Final Fantasy (though Auron very nearly saved the franchise for me), and that other load of crap. How much have you played of the games? Mass Effect 1 had its issues, but Mass Effect 2 addressed practically all of the story and character-related ones. Characters are deep in this game. Mordin, for example, seems to be your typical quirky scientist with a nice streak. But you almost immediately have this illusion shattered, as it becomes plain that he is more amoral than most, and is not above killing people to complete his tasks. You delve deeper and find out his work involving the krogan genophage, and watch as he struggles to justify it; he has a conflict between his heart and mind on what was the right thing to do. Working in the clinic you found him in is implied to be moral compensation for the guilt he feels over it. You can, in the end, convince him that helping the krogans recover is the best choice, but it's a very hard battle to get him to that point, a moral debate that is almost totally in the gray area. BioWare has a talent that Black Isle and Obsidian does not: Black Isle has a habit of taking idyllic settings and making them dark and gritty, where everyone has an ulterior motive and nobody is truly good, or truly evil. They make it so that no matter how hard you try, you simply cannot make much change because people will always be corrupt and jackasses at heart. BioWare does something different: they give you a gray universe similar to Black Isle's, but then they set you free: if you wish, you CAN implement black and white morality, and bring serious changes for the better or worse into the universe. You can take a brutal land like Ferelden in Dragon Age, and one step at a time bring a little closer to that ideal fantasy land you always dreamed of.

Which is entirely how you know about early game marketing or about how the series was originally set out to be a homage? Your story is already getting tangled, and you only did one lie.

What lie? You're making no sense here buddy; it's not like I cut myself off from the internet after I started playing. I can run into hype AFTER I've played a game after all, and that's the situation here.

To be honest, all of Black Isle's games were complete on release. And I'll happily admit that the former Black Isle employees in Obsidian etc have, due to a lack of funding back up, industry punch and various other things that BioWare has, released games that have amazing storylines but are usually incomplete. Those games still blow Bioware's games out of the water. Take a look at Knights of the Old Repbublic 1 and 2. If 2 had been complete (which a lot of mods have gotten it close to), it would've been far, far, far better than the original. I still consider it the superior game without mods.

And that sir, is where we disagree. You think that BioWare's games have horrible stories, I question your sanity for thinking that KotOR II is playable without mods. You can say whatever you want about the beginning and middle, but when a story's third act is little more than a half-finished skeleton I call bullshit. The least they could do was try to patch it up, but no luck there huh? There has to be one executive around who played and hated KotOR II's ending enough to commission repairs of it.

KotOR I was fantastic for me. I played that game, and a lot of others, without ever finding out that they're disliked through the internet until some time later. And I loved it. It was distilled Star Wars, the exact game I wanted, and I was satisfied. Then I found out about how "Obsidian made a much better sequel, with much more complex moral dilemmas, go check it out!"

I did and was appalled. Obsidian had taken the galaxy far far away I grew up with and turned it into this seedy hellhole where my childhood heroes were actually corrupt, petty bastards who exiled me because I made a good scapegoat, where I was forced to drag along an old woman who was very clearly a member of the faction I was trying to destroy, where HK-47 had been installed with the Hannibal 2.0 patch (which wasn't all bad, but his story went nowhere which pissed me right the hell off), where my old character died alone and unloved. They can make their own universe to fuck up, when I want to get philosphical I'll go read a book or play Myst or something. When I sit down to play Star Wars, I expect Star Wars.

Anyway, I feel like quoting a Black Isle employee who I can't remember the name of. He said, "Bioware did the musclework, Black Isle did the finesse." Essentially, Bioware made the game engines and Black Isle made the games.

I have a few things to say about this.

1) Black Isle made fantastic original projects, but every attempt to expand on BioWare's work has fallen flat in my eyes. (Neverwinter Nights 2 was on the right track, but then the ending made me swear a blood vendetta against Obsidian as a whole, so...)

2) If BioWare did the musclework, how the hell did Black Isle fuck up the engines so bad, time and again?

3) If they thought they could do a better job than BioWare at making BioWare's games, why not integrate with BioWare to pool their knowledge, so a second game is not required to "fix" the first?

In short, Black Isle and Obsidian are the Studio Gainax of video games. They have an obsession to the point of fetishism over making highly personal, philosophical plots that delve into the psyche of humanity. Crafting dark worlds with bleak surroundings but a little glimmer of hope that proves the heroes can win. But then they reach the end and decide to screw everybody over because happy endings are boring.

[The Worst Gamer]

Peeking ahead, this seems to be code for "I can't refute this" but I'll humor you. I said exactly what I said. Mass Effect isn't original in the storytelling aspects, or the characters; it's original in how it uses those elements to their fullest potential. And while some fantasy games have done a better job, Mass Effect is in my opinion by far the leader in sci fi.

I get it now.

If we're talking about only in the gaming world, then I have to agree completely. That's due to the fact there are so few science-fiction RPGs about, though.

For every other form of media... Not so much. If you want an example of something that does what BioWare wanted to do but better, go look at the Uplift novels by David Brin. Bioware seems to have a lot of similar concepts to that book series (universal council, humans are the weak contenders, all alien species are massive dicks, precursors), and they're very similar in a lot of ways.

Like I said, it takes those pre-conceived notions and then subverts them. Garrus was a renegade cop and detective, like you say, but you get the opportunity to show him that his way isn't always right; a level head and calm approach can be superior to his shoot first ask later mentality, and go back to being a by the book cop. But it gets better: without your influence, he backslides into his old mentality. This really humanizes the character, for lack of a better term. It shows that those drastic personality changes games try to pull off just aren't going to happen in the real world; some people just can't keep it up. The next time around, teaching him to respect procedure is much more difficult and not so complete a change.

Liara goes under much character development between games as well, the loss of Shepard and her hunt for him forcing her to become a cold, efficient information broker. But bits of the old her still shine through on occasion. To me, these are far more memorable than the one and two-note characters from the Fallout games, which are my biggest exposure to Black Isle, Icewind Dale II being the only other one I played extensively.

To me, that part of ME2 said "Oh, shit, this quest series would go completely differently if we allow choices, we better just make it a single line instead". =p As did a lot of other things. It was more an excuse than a deep and thought out bit of characterisation.

Go play Planescape: Torment. Right now, man. Seriously. Do it.

I could go on all day about how wrong you are comparing Mass Effect to the likes of Final Fantasy (though Auron very nearly saved the franchise for me), and that other load of crap. How much have you played of the games? Mass Effect 1 had its issues, but Mass Effect 2 addressed practically all of the story and character-related ones. Characters are deep in this game. Mordin, for example, seems to be your typical quirky scientist with a nice streak. But you almost immediately have this illusion shattered, as it becomes plain that he is more amoral than most, and is not above killing people to complete his tasks. You delve deeper and find out his work involving the krogan genophage, and watch as he struggles to justify it; he has a conflict between his heart and mind on what was the right thing to do. Working in the clinic you found him in is implied to be moral compensation for the guilt he feels over it. You can, in the end, convince him that helping the krogans recover is the best choice, but it's a very hard battle to get him to that point, a moral debate that is almost totally in the gray area. BioWare has a talent that Black Isle and Obsidian does not: Black Isle has a habit of taking idyllic settings and making them dark and gritty, where everyone has an ulterior motive and nobody is truly good, or truly evil. They make it so that no matter how hard you try, you simply cannot make much change because people will always be corrupt and jackasses at heart. BioWare does something different: they give you a gray universe similar to Black Isle's, but then they set you free: if you wish, you CAN implement black and white morality, and bring serious changes for the better or worse into the universe. You can take a brutal land like Ferelden in Dragon Age, and one step at a time bring a little closer to that ideal fantasy land you always dreamed of.

That's not really deep characterisation. That's a level or two of characterisation. For deep characterisation, most people suggest at least three layers, ie. the public face, the face that a person believes they have and the face they really have. Face is personality, basically.

Mordin has, at most, two faces. His public face and the face he really has. It's more than likely one layer as that comprises his entire personality.

What lie? You're making no sense here buddy; it's not like I cut myself off from the internet after I started playing. I can run into hype AFTER I've played a game after all, and that's the situation here.

So you searched out all the dev diaries / interviews from when Mass Effect was in development. Yeeeeah.

And that sir, is where we disagree. You think that BioWare's games have horrible stories, I question your sanity for thinking that KotOR II is playable without mods. You can say whatever you want about the beginning and middle, but when a story's third act is little more than a half-finished skeleton I call bullshit. The least they could do was try to patch it up, but no luck there huh? There has to be one executive around who played and hated KotOR II's ending enough to commission repairs of it.

KotOR I was fantastic for me. I played that game, and a lot of others, without ever finding out that they're disliked through the internet until some time later. And I loved it. It was distilled Star Wars, the exact game I wanted, and I was satisfied. Then I found out about how "Obsidian made a much better sequel, with much more complex moral dilemmas, go check it out!"

I did and was appalled. Obsidian had taken the galaxy far far away I grew up with and turned it into this seedy hellhole where my childhood heroes were actually corrupt, petty bastards who exiled me because I made a good scapegoat, where I was forced to drag along an old woman who was very clearly a member of the faction I was trying to destroy, where HK-47 had been installed with the Hannibal 2.0 patch (which wasn't all bad, but his story went nowhere which pissed me right the hell off), where my old character died alone and unloved. They can make their own universe to fuck up, when I want to get philosphical I'll go read a book or play Myst or something. When I sit down to play Star Wars, I expect Star Wars.

Like I said, they don't have enough oomph in the gaming industry to be able to extend deadlines.

KotOR II was meant to subvert the very idea of good and evil. Hence why Kreia, who would have been pure evil or something in another game, is more morally neutral than anyone else. It was also an integration of game mechanics INTO the storyline and so on and so forth. From a metagame level, KotOR II was an amazing people of game design and writing. Don't get emotionally involved, stay detached and objectively examine it. You'll understand why some people like it a lot more.

I have a few things to say about this.

1) Black Isle made fantastic original projects, but every attempt to expand on BioWare's work has fallen flat in my eyes. (Neverwinter Nights 2 was on the right track, but then the ending made me swear a blood vendetta against Obsidian as a whole, so...)
2) If BioWare did the musclework, how the hell did Black Isle fuck up the engines so bad, time and again?
3) If they thought they could do a better job than BioWare at making BioWare's games, why not integrate with BioWare to pool their knowledge, so a second game is not required to "fix" the first?

In short, Black Isle and Obsidian are the Studio Gainax of video games. They have an obsession to the point of fetishism over making highly personal, philosophical plots that delve into the psyche of humanity. Crafting dark worlds with bleak surroundings but a little glimmer of hope that proves the heroes can win. But then they reach the end and decide to screw everybody over because happy endings are boring.

NWN2's expansion was a beautiful piece of work. Truly gorgeous.

The idea is that the musclework is the engine building. KotOR2 had a different engine to Bioware's.

I don't think they're into that much of a big company atmosphere.

And it's truly beautiful.

[Gantolandon]

To me, that part of ME2 said "Oh, shit, this quest series would go completely differently if we allow choices, we better just make it a single line instead". =p As did a lot of other things. It was more an excuse than a deep and thought out bit of characterisation.

Go play Planescape: Torment. Right now, man. Seriously. Do it.

Actually, this is a bad example, because P:T was more linear than ME will ever be. Both games sacrificed freedom for story, but still - while P:T was really a great game, it wasn't particularly known from possibility to make many meaningful choices. Of course, you could choose between many options, but you usually didn't get to see the consequences. You never get to see what happens to the people in the Curst you has saved. You can't return several years later to the Hive and see if the Razor Angels really was a better choice than the Shivs.

[CJ1145]

I get it now.

If we're talking about only in the gaming world, then I have to agree completely. That's due to the fact there are so few science-fiction RPGs about, though.

For every other form of media... Not so much. If you want an example of something that does what BioWare wanted to do but better, go look at the Uplift novels by David Brin. Bioware seems to have a lot of similar concepts to that book series (universal council, humans are the weak contenders, all alien species are massive dicks, precursors), and they're very similar in a lot of ways.

To be fair, you're asking a video game to be as deep as a book. While that sounds reasonable, you have to realize that an author just writes what he wants. BioWare has to write in multiple storylines and bits of dialogue and coding, etc. for every single choice a player makes. It's far more difficult, and a far greater accomplishment in my eyes.

To me, that part of ME2 said "Oh, shit, this quest series would go completely differently if we allow choices, we better just make it a single line instead". =p As did a lot of other things. It was more an excuse than a deep and thought out bit of characterisation.

Go play Planescape: Torment. Right now, man. Seriously. Do it.

First, what the guy above me said. Second, you seem rather quick to say "BioWare can't have intended this, it was by accident." Why is that?

That's not really deep characterisation. That's a level or two of characterisation. For deep characterisation, most people suggest at least three layers, ie. the public face, the face that a person believes they have and the face they really have. Face is personality, basically.

Mordin has, at most, two faces. His public face and the face he really has. It's more than likely one layer as that comprises his entire personality.

What's odd to me is that you've just simplified the definition of a complex character. There must be a word for that.

You never did answer my question of how much you've played of the games, as they do go pretty far in giving the characters a backstory, a defined personality, a few secret tidbits here and there, and generally makes a far greater effort at making them deep than most would even dare to attempt.

So you searched out all the dev diaries / interviews from when Mass Effect was in development. Yeeeeah.

Word of mouth, my over-assuming friend. Word of mouth. I paid some minor attention to Mass Effect 2 of course, I saw maybe a 3-minute demo of a segment of Omega and promptly forgot about it. And I ran across a few old diaries of the first game entirely by accident. By a few, I think I meant 1, actually. The rest I've just heard other people quoting.

Like I said, they don't have enough oomph in the gaming industry to be able to extend deadlines.

But if all these people do nothing but rant and rave about how superior Obsidian's games are, I think they'd have the influence to fix one of their most successful games, right?

KotOR II was meant to subvert the very idea of good and evil. Hence why Kreia, who would have been pure evil or something in another game, is more morally neutral than anyone else. It was also an integration of game mechanics INTO the storyline and so on and so forth. From a metagame level, KotOR II was an amazing people of game design and writing. Don't get emotionally involved, stay detached and objectively examine it. You'll understand why some people like it a lot more.

The problem with your description of Kreia is that she actually is evil, by the standards of the universe she is in. She is horribly selfish and more or less wants nothing but her own benefit. Even all the things she does for "you" are really just benefiting her by proxy. She goes to morally questionable lengths to meet these desires of hers. For all intents and purposes, she is the quintessential Sith Lord, hence Dark Sider, hence evil. Like I said, doing it in your own universe makes for some good bait for thought, but in one where your ideas have already been described as impossible, it's a little silly.

I've tried to look at it objectively, and all I can see if a horribly mangled game with a few shining examples of good characterization, and a few muscle strings of good storylines that are the only recongizable pieces of what was once a living creature. The rest is charred flesh and bone, and some of it's just missing entirely.

NWN2's expansion was a beautiful piece of work. Truly gorgeous.

The idea is that the musclework is the engine building. KotOR2 had a different engine to Bioware's.

I don't think they're into that much of a big company atmosphere.

And it's truly beautiful.

The expansion was good, but it won't bring back all the characters that needlessly died and were left behind like it didn't even matter. And no Neeshka romance was just a kick in the balls.

Then they can't claim finesse, as they didn't even bother to use BioWare's musclework. And for building/using a new engine, they did a dang good job at making it look exactly like the old one. Why was a new engine necessary if they weren't going to make any visual changes at all?

Still, they should at least share their "secrets" with BioWare if they're going to be working with them time and time again.

Yeah, beautiful until they fuck up the one attempt they make at an idealistic story, because they just can't get a full wank without a pointlessly depressing ending.

[Shade-o]

You don't see the results of your actions in Torment because screw everybody else, the story was about you and your horrible horrible fate. And what a fate that was!

[Shrugging Khan]

Screw everybody else...or mind-screw them into screwing themselves 

[Shade-o]

Or mind-screw them into not existing.

[Sergius]

There's literally a prostitute that screws minds.

EDIT: But, in a good way.

[Ephemeriis]

The only thing I really like is the sci-fi setting and the mystery behind the game, but in ME2 I started to get pissed of that a single ship could do whatever it liked.
I don't care that they have better tech, the whole galaxy saw what happened in ME1, and then the council decided to forget about the reapers and shit, and everyone will sit their assess on some space bar looking at some asari ass.
That doesn't make any fucking sense to me.

The council never really believed in the Reapers.  There were basically two people in the whole galaxy who had direct evidence of the Reapers - Shepard and Saren.  Not even Liara really had that same kind of direct evidence.

The council didn't want to believe that everything they knew was facing imminent extinction.  Especially not on the word of a single human.

They always kind of figured it was just Saren flying around in a fancy ship.  And you killed Saren.

That's the story that was given to the galaxy-at-large.  Aside from a few people that Shepard had direct contact with, nobody in the galaxy even heard the word "reaper".

So, the big badguy (Saren) is dead.  Life continues like normal.

I never really enjoyed the characters in Mass Effect. They seemed like they were just taking cliches from other genres. (Or possibly cliches from other science-fiction settings that took them from those genres.) Garrus is a film noir detective, Liara is an adventure girl archaeologist etc.

But those characters genuinely grow and change.

As CJ1145 said, Garrus may start out as a film noir detective - but you can nudge him out of his rut.  Only to see him fall back in.  But then you have the opportunity to really push him in a new direction.

And Liara goes from adventure girl archaeologist to some kind of cold, calculating, vengeance-seeking machine.  I romanced her in the first game.  I spent most of the second game genuinely looking forward to our reunion.  I didn't read spoilers or anything like that.  I was genuinely surprised and hurt by the cold reception I got.  It's been a long, long time since anything that happened in a video game actually affected me emotionally.

As far as video game characters go, ME has some of the most engaging ones I've seen.

That's not really deep characterisation. That's a level or two of characterisation. For deep characterisation, most people suggest at least three layers, ie. the public face, the face that a person believes they have and the face they really have. Face is personality, basically.

Mordin has, at most, two faces. His public face and the face he really has. It's more than likely one layer as that comprises his entire personality.

Ah yes, the singing scientist solarian...  Convinced he did right with is work on the genophage...  Insisting that he didn't actually kill anyone...  Almost insistent and convincing enough that he might actually believe it.  Maybe.  Eventually.  Some day.

Mordin definitely has at least three layers.

He's got the choice of two public faces - either the simple solarian doctor or the elite solarian special forces.  Random folks on Omega certainly don't know he had anything to do with the genophage.  And your average solarian probably just sees him as some kind of brilliant war hero.

Then there's the face he thinks he really has...  Calm, calculated, supremely rational, at peace with his decisions regarding the genophage.  Convinced he did the right thing.  Ready to convince others of the rightness of his decisions.  Insisting that he didn't actually kill anyone with the genophage...  Insisting that they just adjusted the birth rate back where it should be...  Insisting that it was not only the best decision, but the only decision...

But there are cracks in that facade.  Put him in your party and haul him around with you...  Some of the comments he makes are a little too introspective.  And the cracks get fairly obvious when you go to "rescue" that solarian for his loyalty mission.  He gets a little too insistent that he did the right thing.  It becomes fairly obvious he's trying to convince himself more than convince you.

But he still seems like he's pretty happy as a scientist solarian...  Maybe not so happy with his decisions, but happy enough as a scientist.  Until you get to the end and he sings for you.  There's a real sense of joy in his singing.  A real fondness when he talks about the theater.

And suddenly you start wondering if he maybe meant something different all those times that he says he had to make the decision, because somebody else might have made the wrong decision.  Maybe he isn't so happy as a scientist.  Maybe he'd much rather be in the theater.  Maybe he became the elite super spy because he felt it was his duty...  Because he felt he had to...  And maybe he didn't really have much of a choice himself.

I get it now.

If we're talking about only in the gaming world, then I have to agree completely. That's due to the fact there are so few science-fiction RPGs about, though.

For every other form of media... Not so much. If you want an example of something that does what BioWare wanted to do but better, go look at the Uplift novels by David Brin. Bioware seems to have a lot of similar concepts to that book series (universal council, humans are the weak contenders, all alien species are massive dicks, precursors), and they're very similar in a lot of ways.

Well, of course we're talking about video games...

Yes, there are plenty of books out there with very deep and involving storylines - although I never really enjoyed the Uplift novels.

But you can't really compare hundreds of pages worth of novel to dozens of hours worth of video game.  Especially when the video game has to account for player choices along the way.

[lordnincompoop]

Salarian, not Solarian.

But very well said nonetheless.