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[Shadowlord]

I have to agree that the magic system in the previous TES games was terrible.

Really? Can you show example of brilliant magic system?
There is not really a lot to compare to so it cannot be terrible.

Magicka.

[Virtz]

At this point I'm pretty sure you people would applaud anything Bethesda decides.

Even if they decided to unify Nords, Bretons, Redguards and Imperials into one human race, you'd go "Well, they weren't that different visually and the differences were racist and unbalanced, so this is a change for the better!" or "They didn't have time to put in all 11 races, so stop expecting the impossible!".

Or if they removed all weapons other than swords, you'd say "Well, at least now the sword combat will be more refined, and the other weapons were seriously unbalanced, so this is good! What? They didn't have time to balance all the others out, so it's better this way!".

Apparently time is accelerating and they have less and less time to do a worse job of it all.

[Jehdin]

At this point I'm pretty sure you people would applaud anything Bethesda decides.

I could say the opposite of you and be far more correct than you are. 

Several of us dislike them implementing horses but half-assing it and not allowing mounted combat. When I see something that's actually an issue, I will complain about it. Lack of spellcrafting? Not an issue with the new magic system, it would have been a waste of development time to implement. Lack of digitigrade legs? Who cares, in all other TES games but Morrowind they had Plantigrade anyway. Argonian females have always had breasts.

The thing is, you, among others, like to blow shit way out of proportion. "No spellcrafting?! The end is nigh!"

Lighten up, it's just a game, you don't need to whine about every little thing.

Apparently time is accelerating and they have less and less time to do a worse job of it all.

My point -----------------------> WHOOSH

Your head ------------------> 0

My point being, they had to use development time for other new things... like making a whole new magic system, adding crafting, skill perks, dragons, etc.

Features are cut all the time, this game likely won't even be half of what it was originally envisioned to be, but we won't even know what that was. I'm sure there were far more awesome things than spellcrafting on the list of things they cut. People just whine about spellcrafting because it was in the previous games and it was so necessary due to how broken the old magic system was.

What about custom enchantments, I wonder if that is cut too...

Enchanting is still in.

[Virtz]

You seriously see nothing wrong with removing a feature that's been characteristic of the TES series since the very begininng? And it wasn't there because "the magic system was broken", it was there because it was a neat feature and it was neat to create your own spells. The magic system may've been overpowered because of it, but it made the TES series more unique compared to the average fantasy game. Now it's being removed so that TES can better follow the current fantasy trends of dragons, dual-wielding and crafting, apparently.

To me this is just the next step in simplifying the magic system. The only redeeming quality about it is that at least you can still combine 2 spell effects.

[Vibhor]

You seriously see nothing wrong with removing a feature that's been characteristic of the TES series since the very begininng? And it wasn't there because "the magic system was broken", it was there because it was a neat feature and it was neat to create your own spells. The magic system may've been overpowered because of it, but it made the TES series more unique compared to the average fantasy game. Now it's being removed so that TES can better follow the current fantasy trends of dragons, dual-wielding and crafting, apparently.

To me this is just the next step in simplifying the magic system. The only redeeming quality about it is that at least you can still combine 2 spell effects.

No use arguing with him. He has started chanting GOTY GOTY all over again while foaming from the mouth.
He probably thought that Oblivion was the best thing ever done to the series too.

[Johuotar]

I never played mages so I don't really care about removal of spellmaking. Is it really that important that you can change the fireball spell to 20% more/less powerful, I mean arent the stock spells good enough? I dont know really not having played pure mages, I just found them quite boring.

Game makers have a problem of having fans who are used to feature that was in old game and think that it automatically should be in all following games. It doesn't work like that, features can be removed if the creators want to have different kind of game instead of the same game over and over with shinier graphics.

[forsaken1111]

You seriously see nothing wrong with removing a feature that's been characteristic of the TES series since the very begininng?

If it makes the game better, I see no problem with it. You cannot hold on to specific aspects of the game and whine petulantly, "But it's always been this way!"

Keeping a poorly done feature like the spell making just because it's traditional is a bit pointless.

[Yoink]

Hey, I'm excited for the game, but I don't really like the inclusion of dual-wielding, (which is stupid) nor am I particularly interested in the whole dragon-born thing. I'm just excited to have a decent action RPG, finally, and the setting, combat and characters all look pretty good too.
I have never really bothered playing a magician, and I doubt I will even use the magic system, but I can see how the cut would upset some people.
So sure, it will have flaws, but what game doesn't? If you give it a chance, it's pretty much guaranteed to be fun.
You just have to play it to enjoy it, not to point out every little omission from the former games. Judge it by its own merits, not by those of its predecessors, which are no-doubt augmented by nostalgia.

So, in summary: *THWAP!* *knock's off peoples' rose-tinted glasses*

[Virtz]

Hey, I'm excited for the game, but I don't really like the inclusion of dual-wielding, (which is stupid) nor am I particularly interested in the whole dragon-born thing. I'm just excited to have a decent action RPG, finally, and the setting, combat and characters all look pretty good too.
I have never really bothered playing a magician, and I doubt I will even use the magic system, but I can see how the cut would upset some people.
So sure, it will have flaws, but what game doesn't? If you give it a chance, it's pretty much guaranteed to be fun.
You just have to play it to enjoy it, not to point out every little omission from the former games. Judge it by its own merits, not by those of its predecessors, which are no-doubt augmented by nostalgia.

So, in summary: *THWAP!* *knock's off peoples' rose-tinted glasses*

I am currently playing Morrowind. It is leagues better than Oblivion or Fallout 3. No rose-tinted glasses here.

And yeah, a series should be changing from game to game, but by becoming more and more complex in gameplay, not by becoming simpler for people like the Quakecon audience. And I don't see anything shoddy about the spellmaking system in Morrowind or in Daggerfall. It's exploitable, but nowhere near beyond fixing. This is basically throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Karnewarrior]

Simple does not mean worse.

I like DF because it is complex.
I like Oblivion because it is simple and fun.


Sure, Oblivion is easy to break, but so is every game. The designers just try to block anyone who isn't trying and then make the game fun to play the way it was meant to be played, not for someone who is trying to powerlevel because they can.

I liked Oblivion, and I've replayed it at least 4 times, which is pretty good for a game everyone hates on so hard. It's gotten boring now, and unfortuantely I have it for a console rather than a computer, so I can't get mods. I'll rectify this for Skyrim and try to get in on PC so I CAN mod it, when I want to. I do want to play through on Vanilla though, because Bethseda make good games. Of course they have flaws. Every game has flaws. DF has flaws. Morrowind has flaws (big ones *cliffracers*). Viva Pinata has flaws.

Everything.

EVERYTHING.

So if we can look at this game objectively instead of polarizing ourselves into Hate/Blind Love maybe we can discover that we actually like the game because it has merit.

[Virtz]

Simple does not mean worse.

I like DF because it is complex.
I like Oblivion because it is simple and fun.


Sure, Oblivion is easy to break, but so is every game. The designers just try to block anyone who isn't trying and then make the game fun to play the way it was meant to be played, not for someone who is trying to powerlevel because they can.

I liked Oblivion, and I've replayed it at least 4 times, which is pretty good for a game everyone hates on so hard. It's gotten boring now, and unfortuantely I have it for a console rather than a computer, so I can't get mods. I'll rectify this for Skyrim and try to get in on PC so I CAN mod it, when I want to. I do want to play through on Vanilla though, because Bethseda make good games. Of course they have flaws. Every game has flaws. DF has flaws. Morrowind has flaws (big ones *cliffracers*). Viva Pinata has flaws.

Everything.

EVERYTHING.

So if we can look at this game objectively instead of polarizing ourselves into Hate/Blind Love maybe we can discover that we actually like the game because it has merit.

Wrong.

I went into Oblivion hyped up. It was bad, though. Too bad for me to look past. And boring. The melee combat was so ungodly boring, slow and repetetive. And it only got slower as the game progressed, because everything leveled in a way that gave them tons of HP and better armour. Stealth was broken from the get go with psychic guards that only got modded out much later. And the writing was shit. Everyone in the world acted mentally deficient.

It was something that looked fun and interesting on the surface, but the more I got into it, the more it turned out to be much more shallow and boring than expected. In the end the flaws far outweighed the positives for me.

[Johuotar]

I must say that Oblivion required ungodly amount of mods to be enjoyable for me. I dont really think of it that fondly because the fact I enjoyed it relied so much on fan produced content instead of the official stuff.

[Draignean]

I intended to argue with virtz and vibhor over the whole spellmaking thing, then I realized it wouldn't matter and played a little SoTS. Halfway through designing a ship I realized that this would make a kickass spellmaking system.

Then I remembered why had started playing SoTS in the first place and started really lamenting Skyrim's lack of spellmaking.

Hell I think Vibhor's is a complete ass but he's got a point, the loss of spellmaking is the loss of a piece of customization. I do not generally need spellmaking, I do not generally use spellmaking, but I still want it to be there If I feel the need for it.

Running around as a male Nord wearing nothing but a floral skirt is something that cannot be done in oblivion, clothing auto-changes to fit the gender of the user.  The Game does not need cross dressing, the game does not need spellmaking, the game does not need alchemy, the game does not need starsigns.

But the fact of the matter is that we want them, even if we never use them again they are good to have as an option.

"I want to be able to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal?" -Edgar Friendly (Denis Leary)


And now for something completely different, a user attempting to add something to the thread's content level.

http://multi.systemlink.me/2011/08/skyrim-no-spell-making-killable-bees.html
Read it there's some cool stuff there.

http://botchweed.com/game-news/swords-spells-and-star-signs-10-reasons-why-skyrim-is-making-me-sweat/
Nothing new that I saw, more of an enthusiasm booster.

[HLBeta]

-Fast Travel costs money.

Really, Bethesda? Really? Is the world actually going to be pretty enough to bother moving through this time or are you just trying to recapture some of the Morrowind flavor? Because one of the things I hated about Oblivion was how clearly and lazily inflated the map size was. Riding my horse up Mt. Random Gradient got old fast.

In retrospect, I think that's part of what I liked about Shivering Isles. It was more tightly mapped and the the slopes were almost never steep enough to be a serious obstacle. That and the fact that it was pretty enough to feel worth exploring.

[Duke 2.0]

 The one argument they had which worked was "I want this because it is fun." and as frustrating and awkward and broken as it was, there was some joy to be had in seeing a large list of possibilities and deciding exactly what you want. It was a system that probably should not have been entirely scrapped, but I understand why they would make that decision and am okay with the reasoning, as I know this stuff is difficult.

 I look forward to seeing whatother news comes out about the game.