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[Dsarker]

I'm not sure what (some of) you people are talking about, I personally thought the whole "constellations as skill trees" thing was pretty neat. Not just aesthetically, mind you, it's the whole "take an existing element and use it in an unexpected way" thing that I enjoy so much. TES regularly references these signs, constellations, but only as symbols. Taking a constellation representing a skill group, and turning it into a perk tree for that skill group, is a very imaginative design, and something I can only approve.

If you still think it's just a flashy waste of screen space, then let me remind you that the closest analogue of that system, and one accessed much more often, is the tech tree of Sword of the Stars. It's basically the same thing, except with a smart aesthetic design.

Though I should probably point out that it will all depend on how it's pulled off for the PC version. If I won't be able to scroll the view around with the mouse, zooming with the wheel to see areas I need, then it'll likely gets its share of bashing from me as well.

Horizontal text on a horizontal list, that's the major fuck up. If they had used the inventory screen layout, then it'd be all hunky dory. You'd have a vertical list displaying all your skill values on the left without (much) scrolling, and you'd have the constellation of whatever it is you're highlighting on the right. The current layout is a horrendous idea that came up because someone saw it on an iPod.

I have to point out a few things first.

I don't own an ipod, an Apple computer, the last console I played was a PS2, and I can't remember the last time I played it, but it is the only console I've played on.

I love the menu. It's aesthetically pleasing to me, it gives me something to look at other than just whatever the character looks like at the time and brown screens with black text. I'm quite tempted to buy the game just for that. I'm loving it.

[Mini]

The problem with it is that you can only see ~1/3 of the skills at one time, seeing the rest requires you to scroll around. If they had used (for example) a list of your skills on the left with their level, and the constellation skill perk thing on the right then you can have (most of) the best of both worlds.

[Dsarker]

The problem with it is that you can only see ~1/3 of the skills at one time, seeing the rest requires you to scroll around. If they had used (for example) a list of your skills on the left with their level, and the constellation skill perk thing on the right then you can have (most of) the best of both worlds.

I can't see even a third of my skills at any time in Oblivion either.

[MorleyDev]

Which is where DarNified UI becomes useful.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I can see your point there, a vertical list would be more informative. But a horizontal list isn't exceptionally bad, after all you don't normally need to know the exact numeric values of all your skills at once. The skills are grouped together, and if you're keeping watch on one or two, they're just a scroll away. Also, I kinda suspect there will be some kind of general "stats" page anyway, where these skills are listed, but without the perk selection.

[Virtz]

I can see your point there, a vertical list would be more informative. But a horizontal list isn't exceptionally bad, after all you don't normally need to know the exact numeric values of all your skills at once. The skills are grouped together, and if you're keeping watch on one or two, they're just a scroll away. Also, I kinda suspect there will be some kind of general "stats" page anyway, where these skills are listed, but without the perk selection.

You could have them all visible at once without sacrificing aesthetics. You know, make it both functional and pretty. That's the point. There's no reason for this other than to awe (flame removed).

And I'm pretty sure that, much like FO3 and Oblivion, there will be no seperate screen showing the same information in a more functional manner. Their default UIs were crap and this is even worse.

[Sordid]

I'm not sure what (some of) you people are talking about, I personally thought the whole "constellations as skill trees" thing was pretty neat. Not just aesthetically, mind you, it's the whole "take an existing element and use it in an unexpected way" thing that I enjoy so much. TES regularly references these signs, constellations, but only as symbols. Taking a constellation representing a skill group, and turning it into a perk tree for that skill group, is a very imaginative design, and something I can only approve.

It's not the idea itself (which I agree is very cool), it's the execution of it.  I even approve of the nebulae in the shape of a thief, a mage, and a fighter. I know exactly where that comes from, it's a little nod at people who still remember Daggerfall. But back then they were done tastefully, these I find to be too colorful, too gaudy.

I'm pretty sure that, much like FO3 and Oblivion, there will be no seperate screen showing the same information in a more functional manner. Their default UIs were crap and this is even worse.

I'm also pretty sure that there will be no change whatsoever to the UI in the PC version.

[forsaken1111]

(response to flame removed)

[Toady One]

I removed the seed of an unrelated flame war.  Please try to keep it together in general.

[Virtz]

I was referring to the fact that someone from Bethesda stated that the skill screen interface is inspired by the interface of the Apple iPod, a handheld music player, which should have no place in more advanced devices like consoles and PCs. So it wasn't unrelated. Although I guess referring to the forementioned undisclosed group of people is upsetting to someone now.

[forsaken1111]

I was referring to the fact that someone from Bethesda stated that the skill screen interface is inspired by the interface of the Apple iPod, a handheld music player, which should have no place in more advanced devices like consoles and PCs. So it wasn't unrelated. Although I guess referring to the forementioned undisclosed group of people is upsetting to someone now.

It's possible to reference a group of people without insulting them. Regardless, that's been taken care of.

Has there been any more detailed information on the (lack of?) crafting in this game? The previous games have been all over the place when trying to include and balance crafting.

[shadenight123]

you can cook meat.
that's all the crafting that has been explained.
>.>

XD

that said i do seem to have seen in the gameplay taken down from youtube the interaction with the "forge" so maybe a nehrim-like style of crafting.
Like, go with a pick and pick your ore, (horrible play on words) then smelt the ore.
Then use the smelted ore to make weapons.
Then pray you have high crafting skill.

[KrunkSplein]

Right now I am the last person I expected to support Bethesda, but I do have a quick point to make about the menu system.  The main gripe I am hearing is that it isn't a concise view of all of your skills.  Point in fact, you can only see about a third of them at any one time.  However, that doesn't seem to be an attempt to obfuscate or (conversely) overly-simplify the UI.  That's the UI designer trying to take the game further away from the grid-of-numbers that it once was.

If you are one of the people angry about the constellation skill screen, try and imagine a situation in which you need to see *all* of your skill numbers at the same time.  Then ask yourself if - in that scenario - you are min/maxing.  You probably are, and that's something they seem to want to avoid.

With Oblivion, min/maxing was essentially a requirement.  Lord help you if you inadvertently leveled off of Athletics - suddenly you're surrounded by high-level daedra and all you can do is run a little bit faster.  If you wanted to be truly successful in Oblivion (and to a lesser extent, Morrowind) you absolutely had to carefully plan your build from start to finish.  How many of us, in our first Oblivion playthroughs, got absolutely destroyed at the first Oblivion Gate after spending some time leveling up on sidequests?  You either had to run the main quest ASAP before you leveled up too much or you had to wait until you were maxed out and fully enchanted.  That seems to be one of the major things they are trying to change for Skyrim.

TL;DR - if there's no need to micromanage your skill gains, do you really need to see all of your numbers at once?

[Virtz]

Min/maxing or not,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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screens?

Also, it's my damn choice whether I min/max in a game or not. I know I could play through Fallout 1 and 2 without caring much about doing a good build (at least compared to most other RPGs), but they don't make it needlessly difficult to do so either.

[Vibhor]

With Oblivion, min/maxing was essentially a requirement.  Lord help you if you inadvertently leveled off of Athletics - suddenly you're surrounded by high-level daedra and all you can do is run a little bit faster.  If you wanted to be truly successful in Oblivion (and to a lesser extent, Morrowind) you absolutely had to carefully plan your build from start to finish.  How many of us, in our first Oblivion playthroughs, got absolutely destroyed at the first Oblivion Gate after spending some time leveling up on sidequests?  You either had to run the main quest ASAP before you leveled up too much or you had to wait until you were maxed out and fully enchanted.  That seems to be one of the major things they are trying to change for Skyrim.

No-nononono-no-NOPE!
First time I played oblivion, I remained level two because I found out how ungodly they fucked up the game balance. I primarily played a stealth character because it was much more engaging than any combat they could throw.
Also I love how your post defending skyrim reads like
"IF YOU LIKE CONVENIENCE THEN YOU ARE MIN MAXER. CONVENIENCE = MIN MAXING GUISE! LIKE TOTALLY"
Think about it, 1/3 skills per screen means you would spend 1/3 extra time in the menu. You would open the skill menu for like 100 times(understatement) per game. Lets say you spend 3 minutes in the menu generally, Now add an extra 1 minute to that and multiply that with 100. Which means you would spend 400 minutes in the menu. That is 100 minutes extra. Pretty streamlined eh?
Not to mention how royally fucked up this type of UI would be with a pointing device. I have a pointing device for a reason. Its not called scrolling device, its known as a pointing device, whose specialty is to point and click on things not scrolling through menu. This is just another decision to show that console is their lead SKU. You really cannot defend that.