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[Soadreqm]

About this chased-by-three-dragons thing, I can really see why they'd want to cut it. It's a random encounter. If you randomly encounter it while not yet strong enough to successfully run away from three dragons, which really does sound pretty difficult to pull off, the encounter will just be the game arbitrarily deciding to kill you. If you meet it while unable to fight the dragons, but carrying some instant escape options, it'll just be annoying. The game threw an unwinnable scenario at you from nowhere, and now have to walk halfway across the map AGAIN. If the game generally lacks things way tougher than you, it will feel out of place; if the game usually expects you to defeat the monsters it tosses at you, a monster group you can't defeat will feel tremendously unfair. "Haha", the game is saying. "You suck at Skyrim. Thought you were tough, defeating those atronachs? Well, you're not. You're a wimp who has to run away from random encounters."

Most players will assume that they can kill whatever crosses them, and this is usually true. If you hand them something they CAN'T kill out of nowhere, they'll get frustrated. You need to spend some serious effort in communicating to the player that these monsters are DANGEROUS, that he ISN'T supposed to be fighting them at his current experience level, and that running away is OKAY and doesn't make him any less of a man.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that if there's a big black blotch with the text "HERE THERE BE DRAGONS" and some skulls drawn around it, and the player goes there despite everyone warning him not to, getting chased away by a mob of dragons is okay. If, however, the player is hired to rescue the innkeeper's sister from bandits and randomly runs across a mob of dragons while looking for the right cave, that's bad. Bad bad wrong.

[kilakan]

I don't know, if there's some way to kill every enemy, sort of like bosses on insane difficulty in games, I don't think the game going, ok so you are playing normal, well here's 3 NORMAL dragons to kill, time to use your pro skills.  I don't think it would bother me at all, and due to the auto-saving nature, and easy escape of most bethesda games, three dragons should be able to be run from, kited until you kill them, or teleported away from.

[Sensei]

I'd really like if the randomness of encounters was part of the difficulty setting. On "realistic" mode, nothing stops a powerful monster from wandering where it wants, but on lower difficulties incidents of powerful monsters showing up in unexpected locations are less frequent.

Edit: Also, something's wrong with an RPG's balancing if you never have to run scared from something (or at least never end up barely defeating something).

[Africa]

So I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that if there's a big black blotch with the text "HERE THERE BE DRAGONS" and some skulls drawn around it, and the player goes there despite everyone warning him not to, getting chased away by a mob of dragons is okay.

It shouldn't be that blunt. Morrowind had it right; there was a gradation of how safe different areas were. You learned it from experience or from townspeople warning you to stay away from Daedric shrines. If you wandered into the Ashlands or a Daedric shrine at low level, you got schooled, and presumably after a few times of that, learned not to go there till you got stronger. The game doesn't have to tell you not to go somewhere, but yeah, at the same time, Golden Saints shouldn't be lurking right outside Seyda Neen, or even on the road to Balmora.

[Sensei]

Cliff racers.

[Ampersand]

Cliff Racers weren't hard, they were just annoying in that they were the only enemy you had to look up to spot before it pounced on you.

[LoSboccacc]

Cliff Racers weren't hard, they were just annoying in that they were the only enemy you had to look up to spot before it pounced on you.

naaa with distant AI setting they gave you their squeawking warning.

Still, this seems the standard case of bethesda under delivering: hei! here is the new radiant story, but we can't do that to console player or the new democratic of gamers that want "everything, now", so screw that.

 

[Sordid]

So I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that if there's a big black blotch with the text "HERE THERE BE DRAGONS" and some skulls drawn around it, and the player goes there despite everyone warning him not to, getting chased away by a mob of dragons is okay.

It shouldn't be that blunt. Morrowind had it right; there was a gradation of how safe different areas were. You learned it from experience or from townspeople warning you to stay away from Daedric shrines. If you wandered into the Ashlands or a Daedric shrine at low level, you got schooled, and presumably after a few times of that, learned not to go there till you got stronger. The game doesn't have to tell you not to go somewhere, but yeah, at the same time, Golden Saints shouldn't be lurking right outside Seyda Neen, or even on the road to Balmora.

Yeah, I agree that MW had it right. It always gave you some warning but without being completely blatant about it. Daedric Ruins? They're all angular and evil-looking, just by the visual design you can tell that's not a good place to be. And notice how when you enter a dungeon, there's never a monster right behind the door? You always have a bit of corridor and maybe a room to give you an idea of what to expect. So if you see red candles and weirdly stacked furniture, you know to get out before you even meet an enemy. If you put at least a modicum of thought into your actions, you're fine. If you just go running around blindly and get eaten by a Hunger as a result, well, whose fault is that?

[Sergius]

Eh, how about some important / main quest NPC just out telling you "if you see something big, run" or something? I think the most effective, less jarring way to tell the player that certain specific encounters (or even random ones) aren't supposed to be won in a fair fight right now, would be to just tell him that if a dangerous enemy attacks him now, the best bet would be to hide or something.

Obviously, not being fast enough to run away from a random encounter that's instadeath to you would be terribly unfair.

[LoSboccacc]

Obviously, not being fast enough to run away from a random encounter that's instadeath to you would be terribly unfair.

well, it depends. there are quite a few tricks to communicate with the player the dangerousness of an area; via music and landscape you can let your player know that an area is not intended for low levels.

but gamers are now convinced that they can do anything anywhere and are not mentally prepared to grind

just remember the first final fantasy: walking around for levelling was considered normal; if you get a newcomer gamer to play that he will get killed by the pirates a dozen time in a row and then drop the game.

[Sordid]

Well I don't think trying to eliminate grinding is such a bad thing, but yes, in earlier games there used to be a lot more of it. Though speaking of FF and instakill random encounters, remember Warmech?

[Shadowlord]

Eh, how about some important / main quest NPC just out telling you "if you see something big, run" or something? I think the most effective, less jarring way to tell the player that certain specific encounters (or even random ones) aren't supposed to be won in a fair fight right now, would be to just tell him that if a dangerous enemy attacks him now, the best bet would be to hide or something.

Obviously, not being fast enough to run away from a random encounter that's instadeath to you would be terribly unfair.

And that does happen in Morrowind. There are times where I'm going where there are clearly non-safe animals around, and I have to reload and try again several times because I'm too bloody persistant trying to get to this temple, and the animal keeps noticing me.

One time I ended up sneaking until it spotted me, and then summoning an ancestral spirit (repeatedly, as I went) while running as fast as possible down a hill towards the closest river, so that I could water walk run where it couldn't follow.

Another time one spotted me and I immediately turned and jumped right off a cliff, over a railing, and it couldn't do the same. (Then I turned it into a pincushion with a bow)

Those were either Kagoutis or Guars, I think. Both equally fatal at my low level at the time.

[Vibhor]

And that does happen in Morrowind. There are times where I'm going where there are clearly non-safe animals around, and I have to reload and try again several times because I'm too bloody persistant trying to get to this temple, and the animal keeps noticing me.

One time I ended up sneaking until it spotted me, and then summoning an ancestral spirit (repeatedly, as I went) while running as fast as possible down a hill towards the closest river, so that I could water walk run where it couldn't follow.

Another time one spotted me and I immediately turned and jumped right off a cliff, over a railing, and it couldn't do the same. (Then I turned it into a pincushion with a bow)

Those were either Kagoutis or Guars, I think. Both equally fatal at my low level at the time.

My common pants of godly healing laugh at you.

[Sensei]

Or better, flying pants.

[Shadowlord]

I actually levitated around 80% of the way from Vivec to Gnisis using a blessing from a Temple shrine in Vivec. It's a strength 100 levitation.