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[Ephemeriis]

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of magical study is "abstracted away", which is terrible, because it would be awesome to have a stack of books and notes needed to operate your mage at full effectiveness.

This, I think, is the main problem we're running into.

It's a game, so everything is kind of abstracted away.  We go to a merchant and buy a spell for a few gold and all of a sudden we can hurl fireballs or heal ourselves.  Makes you wonder why everybody doesn't run out and learn some spells.  And it makes all those books scattered around the mage's guild mere decoration.

The fact of the matter is that there's some study or practice or something implied in gaining skill and leveling up.

Realistically, I can't just pick up a sword and hack on a piece of wood for three weeks and become a master swordsman, but that's how it works in Oblivion.  I can't hop up and down in one place and become a master acrobat, but that's how it works in Oblivion.  And, in Oblivion, I can cast the same crappy spell a few dozen times...  Then go to a merchant and spend a few gold...  And suddenly be able to hurl fiery death at my foes.

So, from a game mechanics standpoint, it doesn't seem like there's any reason a merchant wouldn't go learn a couple handy spells.  Or why your guards wouldn't all be conjuring up their own Daedric armor.  Or why we wouldn't all be powerful mages.

I see magic as being a lot like quantum physics or nanotechnology; the main reason it's not used by soldiers or your average citizen is because it takes years and years of effort to make effects that are only occasionally applicable to a task. Sure, you can then transform elements and strike people down with shiny death, but even then it's probably not as cost-effective to do that as it is to stab someone with a pointy metal stick.

Again, we aren't really seeing this since it's all abstracted away...  But you have to imagine the kind of skill and training necessary to do stuff in the game.

So, you've got an infestation of rats in your house...  How much time/effort/skill/training does it take to just set out some rat poison or traps?  And how much time/effort/skill/training does it take to shoot them with a bow from across the room?  Which of the two are you most likely to do to get rid of your rats?

You're a merchant and you're worried about being knifed while hauling your goods from town to town...  How much time/effort/skill/training does it take to put on a chainmail shirt?  How much time/effort/skill/training does it take to learn a protective spell?

Sure, you could buy a ring or enchant your belt or something...  But how much will that cost, compared to a bit of chainmail?  Yeah, it'd be lighter...  And maybe protect better...  But for how long?  Would you need to remember to activate it?  Would it need to be recharged periodically?

If you're just looking for a quick & dirty solution, it's generally easier to stab something with a pointy bit of metal.  Or throw a heavy rock at it.  Or wear a bit of armor.  Or learn how to swim.  Or take a boat.  Or whatever.

Sure, with some practice and study and training you can learn to hurl fireballs and lightning bolts and walk on water and whatnot...  But maybe your average merchant is more interested in buying and selling goods and doesn't want to spend years studying.  And maybe your average merchant doesn't want to pay thousands and thousands of gold to hire a mage as a bodyguard when some hunk of meat with armor and a sword will do it for tens of gold instead.

I mean...  Just because magic is omnipresent does not mean it's as easy as breathing.  Maybe it is just plain simpler/easier to grab a chunk of flint than it is to magically light a fire.

[Sergius]

No, it's not. Regulation would indicate that there are some rules concerning who gets to use magic. Considering they give you, a former convict, all the spells you can afford, it's pretty clear they don't give a damn.

That's not entirely true. They won't sell you levitation (the official handwave for its removal being that it's been banned), and the banning of necromancy is pretty central to Oblivion's Mages Guild quest line.

I'd say it's true. They don't regulate WHO gets to use magic (emphasis on the original quote). They may regulate specific spells, or ban an entire school of magic, but they won't turn down some (unknown) necromancer (or convict, or commoner) that wants to learn Damage Endurance.

By "all the spells they can afford" evidently means from their spell list. They don't sell the spells they don't sell.

[Glowcat]

On the ability to cast spells.
Spellcasting, I'd say, is limited by an individual's mental ability. If a person has a higher ability to control their thoughts and has a 'better' imagination then it will be easier for them to cast spells and pull off the necessary mental techniques to perform spells. This is perhaps why some do not pursue spellcasting as it is easier for them to lug around heavy armour and to swing a sword than to cast spells and they could attain a higher ability in melee combat.

The book above, though it may not necessarily be true to the lore, suggests that being able to cast more advanced spells is only possible through training in a certain area, which may mean training in the mental techniques used in that area.

I believe this is the state of affairs. Only certain people have the talent and drive to succeed at Magic, and even then typically related to a particular school, whereas most people do not have the mental endurance or flexibility to make it through training. A person who constantly doesn't understand what it being put forth to them will struggle a lot more than one whose mind can quickly spot the meaning and method of knowledge being presented. At most an untalented person may learn a bunch of cantrips such as the Novice level spells, but without considerable intellect (and mana pool) they will be unable to comprehend the truly powerful spells whereas a master can not only cast those spells, but cast them in a way that isn't as magically draining.

[PTTG??]

I would love to see a game world which makes magic more of a supernatural phenomenon.

[Farseer]

I would love to see a game world which makes magic more of a supernatural phenomenon.

I've done a bit of game design on the subject but I am incapable of programming. :p

Also, I don't think people would like a game where a person will get their arsehole ripped up by the most average of creatures.

[Virtz]

No, it's not. Regulation would indicate that there are some rules concerning who gets to use magic. Considering they give you, a former convict, all the spells you can afford, it's pretty clear they don't give a damn.

That's not entirely true. They won't sell you levitation (the official handwave for its removal being that it's been banned), and the banning of necromancy is pretty central to Oblivion's Mages Guild quest line.

I'd say it's true. They don't regulate WHO gets to use magic (emphasis on the original quote). They may regulate specific spells, or ban an entire school of magic, but they won't turn down some (unknown) necromancer (or convict, or commoner) that wants to learn Damage Endurance.

By "all the spells they can afford" evidently means from their spell list. They don't sell the spells they don't sell.

I was originally responding to a statement that the mages guild regulates magic in general, so I guess it is true that they sort of do regulate it, just without concern for who gets the spells as long as they're legal.

I would love to see a game world which makes magic more of a supernatural phenomenon.

I've done a bit of game design on the subject but I am incapable of programming. :p

Also, I don't think people would like a game where a person will get their arsehole ripped up by the most average of creatures.

I'm not exactly sure what making magic more of a supernatural phenomenom means (making it less common place? Less flashy?), but what do creatures have to do with it? Magic or not, you've a sharp melee weapon and hard armour, all they've got is their hide, teeth and claws.

[LoSboccacc]

I would love to see a game world which makes magic more of a supernatural phenomenon.

middle earth, specially as portrayed by the first tabletop rpg (not the d20 base which is rubbish).

[Sergius]

I'd say it's true. They don't regulate WHO gets to use magic (emphasis on the original quote). They may regulate specific spells, or ban an entire school of magic, but they won't turn down some (unknown) necromancer (or convict, or commoner) that wants to learn Damage Endurance.

By "all the spells they can afford" evidently means from their spell list. They don't sell the spells they don't sell.

I was originally responding to a statement that the mages guild regulates magic in general, so I guess it is true that they sort of do regulate it, just without concern for who gets the spells as long as they're legal.

Well, I thought it was about the latest debate of whether "everyone can do magic", but maybe it wasn't. Because "what magic can be cast" is irrelevant to that issue.

[PTTG??]

What I mean is, instead of seeing magic and saying "Eh, that's magic for you," magic more along the lines of "OMG the laws of PHYSICS are being BROKEN RIGHT NOW! :O"

Take Yoda lifting the tie fighter out of the swamp, or even Luke getting his saber out of the snow. Compare it to whatshisface in the new star wars game pulling a giant spaceship out or orbit or Kyle Katarn electrocuting a dozen stormtroopers. Which one seems more mystical? More, well, supernatural?

[Farseer]

I would love to see a game world which makes magic more of a supernatural phenomenon.

I've done a bit of game design on the subject but I am incapable of programming. :p

Also, I don't think people would like a game where a person will get their arsehole ripped up by the most average of creatures.

I'm not exactly sure what making magic more of a supernatural phenomenom means (making it less common place? Less flashy?), but what do creatures have to do with it? Magic or not, you've a sharp melee weapon and hard armour, all they've got is their hide, teeth and claws.

I assumed he meant stuff along the lines of "magic is magic", or something.

Werewolves tearing a single player (no matter how strong) a new one etc etc, instead of them being soloable like in most games.

[Virtz]

I'm not exactly sure what making magic more of a supernatural phenomenom means (making it less common place? Less flashy?), but what do creatures have to do with it? Magic or not, you've a sharp melee weapon and hard armour, all they've got is their hide, teeth and claws.

I assumed he meant stuff along the lines of "magic is magic", or something.

Werewolves tearing a single player (no matter how strong) a new one etc etc, instead of them being soloable like in most games.

When you said average creatures, I sort of assumed wild animals like boars and bears (which are oddly challenging in RPGs for various reasons) rather than supernatural ones.

Although normally supernatural ones would still have their crippling weaknesses, making them quite killable. Werewolves to silver, trolls to fire, etc..

What I mean is, instead of seeing magic and saying "Eh, that's magic for you," magic more along the lines of "OMG the laws of PHYSICS are being BROKEN RIGHT NOW! :O"

Take Yoda lifting the tie fighter out of the swamp, or even Luke getting his saber out of the snow. Compare it to whatshisface in the new star wars game pulling a giant spaceship out or orbit or Kyle Katarn electrocuting a dozen stormtroopers. Which one seems more mystical? More, well, supernatural?

Huh. Not sure about that. If you present some magic as a gameplay mechanism rather than an adventure game one-time thing, then it eventually degenerates to "eh, that's magic". Although I suppose the paranormal abilities in Bureau 13 were sort of close to being a mystical gameplay mechanism.

Also, if you think about it, Yoda did say "size matters not". To which Luke should've asked if he could just push the new death star into a star then. Though maybe he was just a little bonkers by then and was exaggerating.

[Africa]

I think the only sensible explanation for the way the game world is, is that magic can in fact only be used by a handful of people. Otherwise everyone would use it. As for why the player can always learn it, well, it wouldn't be an open-ended RPG if you had to decide at character creation whether your character was one of the lucky few with magical aptitude. It's assumed that you are.

[Virtz]

I think the only sensible explanation for the way the game world is, is that magic can in fact only be used by a handful of people. Otherwise everyone would use it. As for why the player can always learn it, well, it wouldn't be an open-ended RPG if you had to decide at character creation whether your character was one of the lucky few with magical aptitude. It's assumed that you are.

Why wouldn't it be open-ended if you decided your character cannot cast magic? You could do that in Daggerfall and have some advantages in return. Didn't make it linear. It was less linear than Oblivion, actually.

[Solifuge]

Eerie fairy-tale magic has always been my personal preference, but being something that is supposed to defy expectation, understanding, and control, it's difficult to portray as a "system". It's best either when you don't think about it much (A forest is Evil, and bad things just keep happening there, but not due to any specific reason), or when you codify it so heavily and deeply in a complex and impenetrable system that it seems like arcane babbling about stars, invisible forces, and impossible-to-understand natural laws (things like Alchemy, or Ordo Templi Orientis stuff).

[Sergius]

Even if "anyone can cast magic", remember that spells actually failed in Morrowind unless your skill was high enough? And if we consider abstracting the quick skill training in any of these games to actual YEARS of learning (that goes for physical skills too), we have that you can't have somebody just "dabble" in magic (unless they want to keep recasting 100 times the most basic flame ball and fail on the off chance it works once). A mighty wizard could spend his entire life mastering, say, Enchanting, while somebody with at least minimum knowledge to make a very basic item could very well need 2-5 years specializing in that.

This went away in Oblivion, because they thought it looked silly to slash a sword at someone and see it connect only to "miss"... same went for spells, they simply had you do only a % of the damage if your skill was low. Or magicka expenditure, or something.

Gameplay mechanics... segregation... thing, looks to me.

Also: can we agree that most mechanics that change from game to game don't represent the "laws" of the world as simply a different game in the same setting?