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Author Topic: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 266170 times)

scriver

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1290 on: February 05, 2011, 02:06:45 pm »

Pseudo: The same reason we used crossbows / guns in favour of longbows in the real world.

Every fucker can use a gun or a crossbow. It takes training to use longbows.
Everyone can use magic, most just choose not to use it. Even a basic and easy to learn fireball spell would be more effective than early guns.
From where did you get that idea? Magic is easy for the PC because, well, it's the PC. Just like how swordplay or archery is easy for the main character as well. The prevalence of magic users ingame is mostly a case of gameplay and story segregation, as well as selective exposition.

...what, 6 new posts? Oh well.

No one said these people are smart, and if everyone can learn magic, which is heavily implied if not outright said if I remember correctly, then bandits and such would also have magic in that situation. That and what AntiAntiMatter.
I remember no such statement. Citation needed?

Pseudo: The same reason we used crossbows / guns in favour of longbows in the real world.

Every fucker can use a gun or a crossbow. It takes training to use longbows.
The thing is, both of those are direct upgrades, or smaller versions of direct upgrades to siege weapons, and the people who were in a position to invent them couldn't do better just by glaring at whatever they wanted destroyed. Any possible precursors to useful technology would be grossly inefficient and impractical compared to the magical alternative.
Crossbows are "upgraded", easier-to-use bows, not much more. While the first record of crossbows, if I remember correctly, depicts a stationary one, it was by no means a siege weapon. Unless by "siege weapon" you refer to a defensive weapon used during sieges (semantics, I know), but from the context that doesn't seem to be what you're saying.
The latter part of your statement also relies on magic being commonplace, which is obviously not the case. If it were so conventional, there would be no need to give soldiers weapons or armour in the first place. The reasons they're still supplied with arms, despite magic existing, is the same siege equipment would still be used and needed.

Ah, three new replies.
..And another one!
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Soadreqm

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1291 on: February 05, 2011, 02:11:07 pm »

Even the dwemer still had ballistae, unless they did have some sort of gunpowder that I'm unaware of.

The Dwemer totally had gunpowder. I don't care if it's true. It's true for me.

Well, I guess I should try to think of some flimsy justification. They COULD have discovered it, and carefully cataloged all its properties, and maybe even thought of the military implications. Even if they didn't use it, rather preferring to mess with the heart of a dead god, they were exactly the kind of people to know all about esoteric chemical processes. The Mages Guild is full of silly politics, but the dwarves would rather summon the wrath of a god than let a phenomenon go unstudied.

"Hmm, shall I now learn a spell and become powerful enough to earn an easy living as a hunter or bandit killer? Nah, I'll just sit around and keep begging for spare change."

The economy is messed up in general. Bandit killing is one of the most profitable professions in the world, yet hardly anyone does it. The city guards are usually more powerful than the player, and have superior numbers. Yet, they never ever attack the countless smuggler caves littering the landscape. Even though it should presumably be their job.

They are going to replace Orcs with care bears.

Blasting dragons to death with CARE BEAR STARE? Best feature ever. :D

Oh god so many new replies ._.
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Glowcat

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1292 on: February 05, 2011, 02:19:30 pm »

Considering that gunpowder was thought to have arisen from alchemical experiments by the Ancient Chinese searching for an elixir of immortality, I find it extremely dubious that the people of Tamriel wouldn't stumble upon it as well.
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1293 on: February 05, 2011, 02:21:29 pm »

They are going to replace Orcs with care bears.

Blasting dragons to death with CARE BEAR STARE? Best feature ever. :D

Why not combine the two and build a care bear cannon? :D
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Sensei

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1294 on: February 05, 2011, 02:22:05 pm »

I think one of the early deciding factors was the range of guns (inaccuracy didn't matter when firing at an army on a field).
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Nivim

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1295 on: February 05, 2011, 02:22:40 pm »

Even the dwemer still had ballistae, unless they did have some sort of gunpowder that I'm unaware of.
The Dwemer totally had gunpowder. I don't care if it's true. It's true for me.

Well, I guess I should try to think of some flimsy justification. They COULD have discovered it, and carefully cataloged all its properties, and maybe even thought of the military implications. Even if they didn't use it, rather preferring to mess with the heart of a dead god, they were exactly the kind of people to know all about esoteric chemical processes. The Mages Guild is full of silly politics, but the dwarves would rather summon the wrath of a god than let a phenomenon go unstudied.
You seem to have missed my note about it;
Dwemer satchels; you use them to break into new parts of a Dwemer complex in the Tribunal expansion. There's also a mod that fills in the blank here and makes them useful at all places your path is normally blocked by rubble.
I guess they might not necessarily be filled with gunpowder, but they could easily be jammed in the back of a steel tube, covered with shot, and lit.
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scriver

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1296 on: February 05, 2011, 02:25:30 pm »

Even the dwemer still had ballistae, unless they did have some sort of gunpowder that I'm unaware of.

The Dwemer totally had gunpowder. I don't care if it's true. It's true for me.

Well, I guess I should try to think of some flimsy justification. They COULD have discovered it, and carefully cataloged all its properties, and maybe even thought of the military implications. Even if they didn't use it, rather preferring to mess with the heart of a dead god, they were exactly the kind of people to know all about esoteric chemical processes. The Mages Guild is full of silly politics, but the dwarves would rather summon the wrath of a god than let a phenomenon go unstudied.
"Gunpowder" pseudo-exists in game lore. At least if the cannons shown in Daggerfall are used with it, which there really is no reason to question. I wasn't able to find a screenshot of said cannons to prove their existence, though. I did find a stupid joke from a Daggerfall book, though:

Why was the Sentinel army so useless during the War of Betony?

The cannons were too heavy, so all three garbage scows sunk.
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Virtz

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1297 on: February 05, 2011, 02:29:03 pm »

Quote
Everyone can use magic, most just choose not to use it. Even a basic and easy to learn fireball spell would be more effective than early guns.
"Hmm, shall I now learn a spell and become powerful enough to earn an easy living as a hunter or bandit killer? Nah, I'll just sit around and keep begging for spare change."
If one is sitting around begging for spare change, one probably does not have enough money to learn a spell.
Don't you start off with the fireball spell in Oblivion? And you're some criminal somehow known to no one? And a beginning spell costs like under 50 coins?

Either way, the same could be applied to any other citizen who doesn't use magic. Why not learn how to heal yourself? Why not learn how to cure poison? Why wouldn't all the thieves use unlocking spells instead of lockpicks? There's no good reason for anyone deciding not to learn the more useful spells if they can do it.
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1298 on: February 05, 2011, 03:04:19 pm »

Pseudo: The same reason we used crossbows / guns in favour of longbows in the real world.

Every fucker can use a gun or a crossbow. It takes training to use longbows.
The thing is, both of those are direct upgrades, or smaller versions of direct upgrades to siege weapons, and the people who were in a position to invent them couldn't do better just by glaring at whatever they wanted destroyed. Any possible precursors to useful technology would be grossly inefficient and impractical compared to the magical alternative.
Crossbows are "upgraded", easier-to-use bows, not much more. While the first record of crossbows, if I remember correctly, depicts a stationary one, it was by no means a siege weapon. Unless by "siege weapon" you refer to a defensive weapon used during sieges (semantics, I know), but from the context that doesn't seem to be what you're saying.
I suppose I lumped all particularly heavy weapons into the category of "siege weapons" there. It doesn't help that I recall bringing down gates and walls in Total War games with ballistae... My point was that in both cases even the primitive precursors of the device were upgrades in their respective field. In the case of applied gunpowder vs magic, it's a distinct downgrade, as mages are the equivalent of early twentieth century artillery in a more controlled, man-portable form (at least if you think about it realistically: they can summon balls of exploding fire with a thought, yet for game balance reasons being engulfed in fire doesn't really... do anything... >:( Of course, even Dragon Age, where Mages are considered grossly overpowered compared to everything else, doesn't really represent "giant fucking ball of fire exploding with fiery flames of death" too realistically; unrelated to the topic at hand, but I recall someone commenting that they'd never seen an RPG where NPCs would avoid stationary hazards like walls of flame or whatnot: in Dragon Age NPCs will run around the large persistent area of effect spells that can be cast, like earthquakes and storms, rather than through them, if it's possible to do so while still getting to their target), and mages are presumably the only ones educated enough to create gunpowder in the first place, let alone a device that could use it.

Quote
The latter part of your statement also relies on magic being commonplace, which is obviously not the case. If it were so conventional, there would be no need to give soldiers weapons or armour in the first place. The reasons they're still supplied with arms, despite magic existing, is the same siege equipment would still be used and needed.
Magic does appear to be pretty common, and there's no indication that it's arbitrarily restricted to certain individuals who are just "born with the gift" or some other nonsensical idea. It would appear to require formal training or somesuch, meaning it ends up restricted to those who happen to buy such training or stumble into it, which would be much the same sort of circumstances that would restrict engineering and such.

Considering that gunpowder was thought to have arisen from alchemical experiments by the Ancient Chinese searching for an elixir of immortality, I find it extremely dubious that the people of Tamriel wouldn't stumble upon it as well.
There's a good reason I said "proliferation," rather than invention. There's a whole lot more to a device being proliferated, studied, and improved than it coming about in some wizard's laboratory. If I recall correctly the Chinese only used the gunpowder for fireworks, rather than anything practical, so the use as a propellant in a firearm is not as obvious as it seems in retrospect (and even the obvious use of "oh look, pretty colors and explosions!" requires the same level of expertise and training that producing similar (or more likely far nicer) illusions would).


People are taking the view that these devices are obvious. When you have people who can fly and rain exploding balls of fire onto their enemies, and they constitute the educated class, why would one think "hey, let's put this fast burning powder in a tube, with a little metal ball in front of it, and then jam a burning piece of wood through a little hole to launch said little ball really fast, so that maybe it hurts someone!"?
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Virtz

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1299 on: February 05, 2011, 03:25:28 pm »

People are taking the view that these devices are obvious. When you have people who can fly and rain exploding balls of fire onto their enemies, and they constitute the educated class, why would one think "hey, let's put this fast burning powder in a tube, with a little metal ball in front of it, and then jam a burning piece of wood through a little hole to launch said little ball really fast, so that maybe it hurts someone!"?
"Well, there's few of us mages and many commoners who can't fire lightning out of their nose. How about we make more effective weaponry so that they can fight for us and we don't die as much?"
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1300 on: February 05, 2011, 03:29:08 pm »

I recall someone commenting that they'd never seen an RPG where NPCs would avoid stationary hazards like walls of flame or whatnot: in Dragon Age NPCs will run around the large persistent area of effect spells that can be cast, like earthquakes and storms, rather than through them, if it's possible to do so while still getting to their target.

That was me, and I have indeed never played Dragon Age. What if they can't get to the target? Then they'll just run through?
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AntiAntiMatter

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1301 on: February 05, 2011, 03:29:53 pm »

"Well, there's few of us mages and many commoners who can't fire lightning out of their nose. How about we make more effective weaponry so that they can fight for us and we don't die as much?"
They aren't going to bother trying to train commoners. Why would one teach them how to fight when one can summon an already trained and equipped army of demons out of thin air?
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Virtz

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1302 on: February 05, 2011, 03:35:09 pm »

"Well, there's few of us mages and many commoners who can't fire lightning out of their nose. How about we make more effective weaponry so that they can fight for us and we don't die as much?"
They aren't going to bother trying to train commoners. Why would one teach them how to fight when one can summon an already trained and equipped army of demons out of thin air?
Because they can only summon one each and they risk their lives while doing it (at least the way it worked for the player character)? And there's not much "teaching" when it comes to firing a gun.
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AntiAntiMatter

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1303 on: February 05, 2011, 03:37:29 pm »

Because they can only summon one each and they risk their lives while doing it (at least the way it worked for the player character)? And there's not much "teaching" when it comes to firing a gun.
And why are they going to waste time inventing the gun when they can simply teach them how to fire a longbow and issue enchanted arrows?
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1304 on: February 05, 2011, 03:41:05 pm »

And why are they going to waste time inventing the gun when they can simply teach them how to fire a longbow and issue enchanted arrows?

Because enchanted arrows are really expensive and longbows require a lifetime of training to use effectively.
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