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Author Topic: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 265762 times)

Shadowlord

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1095 on: February 01, 2011, 12:45:41 pm »

I agree.  In my opinion Morrowind and Daggerfall had, hands down, the best natural stat progression of any game I've played.  These games allowed you to enhance any skill you wanted, but still gave just enough restriction that you actually felt like you were not a jack of all trades.  And just because there were preset "classes" in Morrowind didn't really mean that you couldn't make up whatever you wanted.
Ever play Ultima Online?
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1096 on: February 01, 2011, 12:50:29 pm »

On one hand, this sounds good. On the other hand, the system is abstract for a reason. For instance, if I just use swords (strength) and light armour (speed), does that mean my Endurance should literally never be able to go up? That would be a tad silly, right?

The problem with that I think is the assignment of speed to light armor, which doesn't really make much sense to me. IMO there's no need for separate light and heavy armor skills. What I'd like to see is Armor skill, which raises your endurance, and Unarmored skill, which raises your speed. So if you wear armor, you get better at soaking up the damage. If you don't, you get better at dodging the attacks.
That's the theory, anyway. Obviously without going back to the Morrowind swing-and-miss model, to be able to actually dodge attacks would require a solid combat system redesigned pretty much from the ground up to accomodate such a tactic. Dodging in Oblivion is completely pointless and does nothing.
Also, you're forgetting that you can block with just a sword, and Block is governed by Endurance. Which makes perfect sense to me in light of the above in terms of the choice between getting hit and soaking up the damage or dodging out of the way of the attack.

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Then, of course, you have something like Luck, which nothing is explicitly based on and is enough of an abstract roleplaying character thing that I can't even see a way to represent gain through usage.

I think that's where the perk system might come in. Or you could use a spell to fortify your luck, which would effectively be a small-magnitude "fortify everything" spell. Or they could just get rid of it. Unless they put Fallout's Sniper perk in (talking about F1 and F2 version here), there's no point to Luck anyway. There already are stats that determine the chances of success, they're called attributes and skills. Why have another one on top of that?

Judging by the way these games (and games in general) have been going, you'll probably be able to successfully use skills even at rather low levels. I've heard that's more or less how it was for the Oblivion lockpicking minigame. Basically, things swing towards player skill and away from character skill, to the point where character skill can be effectively overridden (at least to some degree) even where character skill should be the limiting factor.

That wasn't quite true with the lockpicking. If your Security wasn't high enough, you'd simply get a message that "this lock is too difficult". Likewise with speech - the minigame is easy even if your skill is low, but it puts a limit on how high you can raise the NPCs disposition with it. The minigame is there just to give the player something to do, the limit of success is still determined by the skill.

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As far as leveled monsters/items are concerned, I don't think any of that should be necessary, even by Morrowind standards. In my opinion, having to scale things to the character's level means that you've failed to provide an interesting world with varied and workable challenges in it. Granted, in Morrowind it was fairly unobtrusive, but you still had things like leveled loot, which I hate; if I have a character who (for an example) specializes in taking high risks at low levels and using illusions, cunning, and sneaky skills in order to infiltrate difficult areas, why shouldn't he be rewarded with amazing stuff instead of punished for it with lousier stuff than he'd get when that area is a cakewalk? The answer, of course, is that game design is haaaaaaard and that would require areas that aren't easy to get into and loot even at low level due to balance and AI issues.

Y'know, I was going to argue for a balanced approach, but about halfway through that I thought better of it. You really do make an excellent point there. But that I'm afraid is just another thing that Bethsoft are too lazy to do.
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Bas1lyk

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1097 on: February 01, 2011, 01:03:25 pm »

Quote from: G-Flex
We know that you can't select a birthsign.
Quote from: Sordid
Do we know that? I'm not sure about that. I think so far it's just assumed to be the case, but I don't recall anyone actually stating it officially.
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I know there's no official statement about that, but the statements I quoted are pretty clear about how astrology plays a much different role in this game. I'd be willing to bet money on it.
We know the warrior/thief/mage constellations emerge as the player spends perks, but the birthsign choice could be the player's first perk to spend, e.g. "You were born under the star of..." (You could even make those perks unique to character creation, like the Neverwinter Nights feats Sordid mentioned. At least that's how I'd do it.)

So far character creation does sound fairly cosmetic (new features being beards and customizable body parts), though that could just be because it's easier to market those features.

I'll tell you how I'd like Skyrim to work. See, I use a retroactive stats mod in Oblivion, so that I don't have to pump points into endurance early on for maximum HP gains. I'd like to see that same principle to hold in Skyrim, with HP, MP, and Stamina (use a sodding dictionary, Bethsoft) being based directly on your attributes. And since each skill has a governing attribute, using that skill and getting better at it should also raise the corresponding attribute, translating into HP, MP, or Stamina gain. You wouldn't get to distribute any points, there would be no level up screen, in fact there wouldn't need to be levels at all. It could be completely seamless, which I think would be fantastic.
A bit too elegant for Bethesda, methinks. So instead we've got: "'every skill you level contributes to your overall level'. Each time you level you get extra health and the option to choose more health, or between magicka or stamina, and each level will bring you perks."
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Virtz

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1098 on: February 01, 2011, 01:15:12 pm »

That wasn't quite true with the lockpicking. If your Security wasn't high enough, you'd simply get a message that "this lock is too difficult".
Are you talking about Oblivion or FO3? Cause in Oblivion, you can pick anything right from the start. There's no "this lock is too difficult" thing there, that was in FO3. The only places you couldn't pick were the magic doors that could only be opened by magic keys (and by magic I mean lazy solutions).

Speaking of locks, I wonder if they'll finally put bashing back in. Daggerfall had it. Fallout 1 and 2 had it. FO3 and TES4 didn't.
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Sergius

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1099 on: February 01, 2011, 01:20:43 pm »

Also, any details on how the level scaling or lack thereof is supposed to work? I'm sure it won't be like Oblivion, given how well that was received. I liked Morrowind's system honestly and I don't know why it needed to change. Certain areas are safe, certain areas are more dangerous, other areas are certain death if you're too weak. Nothing wrong with that. There was some scaling in that more powerful monsters would only begin appearing randomly when you were high enough level, but generally it made the game open up more gradually: you didn't want to go into the Ashlands as a low level character, you didn't want to go into Daedric shrines or Red Mountain until you were quite badass, and you couldn't even step foot on Solstheim without getting your ass ripped apart until you were tough enough to laugh off 9 out of 10 enemies from the original game.

They said it was going to be more like Fallout New Vegas. There, you still have "safe" vs "dangerous" areas. There is no "level scaling" as much as "level tweaking", like how an area can be appropriate for levels 5-8 (depending on how soon you visit it, but doesn't change after revisiting). Also, NPCs/monsters DON'T level scale: you get more monsters, or slightly different sets of monsters, but if "bandit type A" is level 24 he's always going to be level 24 (no Viper bandits with gauss guns, so I assume no highwaymen with daedric enchanted daikatanas).

Now that's how it's allegedly in FNV, but I don't know how it will end up in Skyrim.
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Omegastick

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1100 on: February 01, 2011, 01:37:23 pm »

That wasn't quite true with the lockpicking. If your Security wasn't high enough, you'd simply get a message that "this lock is too difficult".
Are you talking about Oblivion or FO3? Cause in Oblivion, you can pick anything right from the start. There's no "this lock is too difficult" thing there, that was in FO3. The only places you couldn't pick were the magic doors that could only be opened by magic keys (and by magic I mean lazy solutions).

Speaking of locks, I wonder if they'll finally put bashing back in. Daggerfall had it. Fallout 1 and 2 had it. FO3 and TES4 didn't.

You're right there, it was OOO that added locks that you can't pick until you're a certain level.
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1101 on: February 01, 2011, 01:38:35 pm »

We know the warrior/thief/mage constellations emerge as the player spends perks, but the birthsign choice could be the player's first perk to spend, e.g. "You were born under the star of..." (You could even make those perks unique to character creation, like the Neverwinter Nights feats Sordid mentioned. At least that's how I'd do it.)

Oh, I just remembered! For those of you who think the constellations emerging in the sky are silly, gamey, non-TES, etc., take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=midvuP6ncsI#t=3m32s
That's Daggerfall's automatic character generator (ignore the horrible accent). See them emerging as he answers the questions? I really like how they went back to this old idea, only instead of answering stupid questions you'll get to actually do the stuff. My hopes of them putting some other Daggerfall stuff into Skyrim also just went up.

You're right there, it was OOO that added locks that you can't pick until you're a certain level.

I stand corrected. It also added bashing... apparently. I've never been able to bash a single lock, I always just get a message that I'm not strong enough. Not that I care, being a sneaky thief with lockpicks up my arse.
No, wait, that's not right...

They said it was going to be more like Fallout New Vegas. There, you still have "safe" vs "dangerous" areas. There is no "level scaling" as much as "level tweaking", like how an area can be appropriate for levels 5-8 (depending on how soon you visit it, but doesn't change after revisiting). Also, NPCs/monsters DON'T level scale: you get more monsters, or slightly different sets of monsters, but if "bandit type A" is level 24 he's always going to be level 24 (no Viper bandits with gauss guns, so I assume no highwaymen with daedric enchanted daikatanas).

Now that's how it's allegedly in FNV, but I don't know how it will end up in Skyrim.

Ooooooh, that sounds really good! *jumps excitedly up and down*
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 01:41:24 pm by Sordid »
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Shadowlord

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1102 on: February 01, 2011, 01:50:53 pm »

Dodging in Oblivion is completely pointless and does nothing.

Nonsense. You just don't know how to do it properly.
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G-Flex

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1103 on: February 01, 2011, 02:14:30 pm »

Oh, I just remembered! For those of you who think the constellations emerging in the sky are silly, gamey, non-TES, etc., take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=midvuP6ncsI#t=3m32s
That's Daggerfall's automatic character generator (ignore the horrible accent). See them emerging as he answers the questions?

Erm, there's a big difference between that happening in the metagame character generation as a cosmetic effect, and that actually happening in the game world. Big difference. Just saying.
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1104 on: February 01, 2011, 02:31:03 pm »

Dodging in Oblivion is completely pointless and does nothing.

Nonsense. You just don't know how to do it properly.

Teach me.

Erm, there's a big difference between that happening in the metagame character generation as a cosmetic effect, and that actually happening in the game world. Big difference. Just saying.

I don't sodding mind! Just saying. >:( It's a little nod to people who remember it from Daggerfall, the constellations even look the same. Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a mod to disable them within a day or two of release.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1105 on: February 01, 2011, 02:48:41 pm »

You basically have to run forward, swing, and then run backward, so that when the enemy swings, you're out of reach. Once they swing and miss, you dart forward and swing again, and then get out of reach again.

It doesn't work on super-fast enemies, of course, and requires that you yourself be fast enough to pull it off. Easiest to do against slow enemies.

And then there's dodging spells and arrows. You either constantly move left and right while the enemy is casting spells or firing arrows, or you just wait until they're casting or about to fire, and then you take a step to throw off their aim, and then stop when they fire/shoot. But that's not so much dodging as tricking their AI so that they fire at completely the wrong place.
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PTTG??

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1106 on: February 01, 2011, 02:51:20 pm »

...Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a mod to disable them within a day or two of release...

Yep, but only AFTER the mod that replaces them with various WH40k spaceships warping in.
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Omegastick

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1107 on: February 01, 2011, 02:55:38 pm »

...Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a mod to disable them within a day or two of release...

Yep, but only AFTER the mod that replaces them with various WH40k spaceships warping in.
I would download that if it was Star Trek spaceships.
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Farseer

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1108 on: February 01, 2011, 03:25:36 pm »

You basically have to run forward, swing, and then run backward, so that when the enemy swings, you're out of reach. Once they swing and miss, you dart forward and swing again, and then get out of reach again.

It doesn't work on super-fast enemies, of course, and requires that you yourself be fast enough to pull it off. Easiest to do against slow enemies.

And then there's dodging spells and arrows. You either constantly move left and right while the enemy is casting spells or firing arrows, or you just wait until they're casting or about to fire, and then you take a step to throw off their aim, and then stop when they fire/shoot. But that's not so much dodging as tricking their AI so that they fire at completely the wrong place.

What a pathetic dodging system.

Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1109 on: February 01, 2011, 03:41:22 pm »

You basically have to run forward, swing, and then run backward, so that when the enemy swings, you're out of reach. Once they swing and miss, you dart forward and swing again, and then get out of reach again.

It doesn't work on super-fast enemies, of course, and requires that you yourself be fast enough to pull it off. Easiest to do against slow enemies.

And then there's dodging spells and arrows. You either constantly move left and right while the enemy is casting spells or firing arrows, or you just wait until they're casting or about to fire, and then you take a step to throw off their aim, and then stop when they fire/shoot. But that's not so much dodging as tricking their AI so that they fire at completely the wrong place.

What a pathetic dodging system.

That's because that's not the dodging system. As I thought, Shadowlord doesn't even know that Oblivion actually has one. You perform a dodge (well, a roll) by simultaneously holding block, moving in a direction, and pressing jump. Rolling to the side sounds very useful when you see an enemy start preparing a power attack, for example. The problem is that your character doesn't actually roll simply sideways, he rolls in a sort of quarter-circle forwards. The idea obviously was to help you keep the enemy in front of you and keep you within striking distance, which again sounds very useful. But the whole thing is completely broken by the fact that the enemies are programmed to always keep you in their crosshair, so when you roll around the enemy to avoid his attack he just turns to face you as you roll and hits you anyway. It would've been eminently useful against both melee and ranged opponents if the enemy lost 'target lock' for the duration of the dodge, but alas, Bethsoft were too lazy. Again.

...Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a mod to disable them within a day or two of release...

Yep, but only AFTER the mod that replaces them with various WH40k spaceships warping in.

I would download that if it was Star Trek spaceships.

Pfft.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 04:00:36 pm by Sordid »
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