Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 70 71 [72] 73 74 ... 201

Author Topic: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 265694 times)

Soulwynd

  • Bay Watcher
  • -_-
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1065 on: January 31, 2011, 08:11:42 pm »

They're doing what they think makes them money.

I think this game will deserve this review when it's done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2Z23SAFVA
Logged

Sordid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1066 on: January 31, 2011, 08:23:18 pm »

Oh gawd, I think I peed in my pants a bit.

Wait, they're putting perks in Oblivion?
They have absolutely no shame left. Who else but Bethesda can get away with making the same game for 5 years straight and still make money?

No, they're putting them in Skyrim. And I don't see what's so wrong with that, I think perks are a good idea. Yea, they're a stolen idea, but so what?
As for companies that make the same game over and over again, Bethsoft isn't even in the top half of those. Try id Software, they haven't made anything but first person shooters for twenty years straight.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 03:34:25 am by Sordid »
Logged

Africa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1067 on: February 01, 2011, 03:41:34 am »

How does a screenshot of a sword in one hand and magic in the other prove that there will be no difference between characters, instead of, say, proving that they are showing off some aspect of the game's capabilities?
Logged
Quote from: Cthulhu
It's like using hobos to fight an eating-resistant baloney epidemic.

Ampersand

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1068 on: February 01, 2011, 04:10:28 am »

How about the fact that there is no class system.
Logged
!!&!!

Sordid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1069 on: February 01, 2011, 04:46:39 am »

How about the fact that there is no class system.

That's not what you said and what the question was about. You were talking about screenshots, and the fact of the matter is you simply can't infer something like that from a screenshot. Battlemages and spellswords have a long tradition in TES, and even a system with a very rigid class structure such as D&D would allow for a character to wield a weapon and magic simultaneously.
And even taking into account the other information you can't be sure there will be no difference. Perks aside, there's a very simple way of enforcing class distinction without actually making you pick a class at the beginning. You know how skills progress more slowly the higher they are? You could apply the same restriction globally, so that it's very easy to train up a few skills (thus setting your 'class'), but once you are proficient in some it becomes much harder to raise others even if they're very low. I'm not saying that's what Bethsoft are going to do (and in fact I don't want them to do that), but it's a possibility that you passed right over on your jump to the conclusion.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 05:11:52 am by Sordid »
Logged

LoSboccacc

  • Bay Watcher
  • Σὺν Ἀθηνᾷ καὶ χεῖρα κίνει
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1070 on: February 01, 2011, 04:51:50 am »

also, items penalties. metal conflicting with magic is quite common in rpg and a classical way to allow hybridization without upholding classes
Logged

Glowcat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1071 on: February 01, 2011, 05:05:28 am »

How about the fact that there is no class system.

Besides the major attribute and birthsign selection, did classes have any real effect on the player besides make certain skills increase faster and determine which skills leveled up your character?

A real perk system instead of the 25 skill milestones (which every character could obtain) may provide more "class" differentiation than Oblivion's class system.
Logged
Totally a weretrain. Very much trains!
I'm going to steamroll this house.

Sordid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1072 on: February 01, 2011, 05:09:28 am »

Besides the major attribute and birthsign selection, did classes have any real effect on the player besides make certain skills increase faster and determine which skills leveled up your character?

Well if you picked a standard class NPCs would sometimes refer to you that way. That was about it, as far a I recall.

I would also like to say that I very much welcome the no-class system, as well as the (presumed) abolition of birthsigns. What people often forget is that birthsigns are a newfangled invention that came into the TES series in Morrowind, and quite frankly I don't much care for them. In Daggerfall, you could set your attributes and select your advantages and disadvantages directly, regardless of race. I really hate how all members of a race are carbon copies of each other. It didn't use to be that way, and I hope they go back to a much more freeform and deeper Daggerfall-ish system.
Logged

G-Flex

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1073 on: February 01, 2011, 07:01:23 am »

Besides the major attribute and birthsign selection, did classes have any real effect on the player besides make certain skills increase faster and determine which skills leveled up your character?

Well if you picked a standard class NPCs would sometimes refer to you that way. That was about it, as far a I recall.

It also affected starting skill totals, starting attributes, and birthsign (granted, birth signs weren't part of "classes", but they might as well have been).

Quote
What people often forget is that birthsigns are a newfangled invention that came into the TES series in Morrowind, and quite frankly I don't much care for them. In Daggerfall, you could set your attributes and select your advantages and disadvantages directly, regardless of race.

Which would be great, if we could do that now, but we can't. I don't get why you complain about Morrowind's character customization for being less flexible and modular than Daggerfall's, yet you're welcoming the end result of that trend: No customization at all.

Quote
I really hate how all members of a race are carbon copies of each other. It didn't use to be that way, and I hope they go back to a much more freeform and deeper Daggerfall-ish system.

Now that's even more true than it was before. In Morrowind, I at least could choose which skills and attributes to favor, and what my birthsign was. It would be nice to have more than that, but now we have nothing.
Logged
There are 2 types of people in the world: Those who understand hexadecimal, and those who don't.
Visit the #Bay12Games IRC channel on NewNet
== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1074 on: February 01, 2011, 07:11:12 am »

Derederailing the topic back to lore for a moment;
Y'know, the only difference between Tamriel and Oblivion is a lot of lava, for the most part. Well, and the immortal Dremora. The Dremora would point to the realm functioning differently but they might not be on every realm.

Anyway, I don't really see what makes Tamriel different from all the other planes. Perhaps the lack of a ruling prince? But we've seen in Shivering Isles that the Daedra in control can leave or be overthrown.
What makes Nirn different from other planes is free will, potential, and the ability to take control of one's own destiny, and change oneself. This, at least, was the dream Lorkhan had when pitched the idea to Magnus, Akatosh and the rest of the et'Ada (though he didn't tell them the whole story, of course, and we all know how that ended ;)). Inherent in this statement is the possibility to for a "ascension to a higher level of being" kind of thing. This is not something Daedra has in common with them, though Dremora (through the their mysterious past at least) is fairly ambiguous in this matter.
Cultures of mankind agrees with this view, which is why they see Lorkhan in a positive light, while elven cultures sees Nirn as a prison and limitation, which is why they hate Lorkhan.

Also, consider this: A Daedric realm is made up of it's (living) Prince, and exist as a part of him/her. Nirn, however, is made up of an uncountable amount of "dead" Aedra, or Earthbones. Even the people, flora and fauna are. So even if we accept that Nirn is a realm like any other, it would still not be a Daedric Realm, but an Aedric, and it wouldn't be Lorkhans alone, but belonging to everyone who sacrificed themselves for it's creation. And since those Aedric spirits became, among other things like the laws of nature, the living beings of today's Nirn, it would only be fair to call it their realm. The Mortal Realm, if you wish. Which is exactly what the word "Mundus" means, and Mundus is, as you may or may not know, one of the names for the part of the universe that isn't either Oblivion or Aetherius. The part/plane which Nirn belongs to/lies in.

I'm sorry if I got a bit confusing at the end. If anyone want me to explain better, tell me and I could try again in a few hours. Right now, though, I'm to tired to come up with another way of saying it, at least one that wouldn't be even more complicated and erratic.
Logged
Love, scriver~

Sordid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1075 on: February 01, 2011, 07:33:06 am »

It also affected starting skill totals, starting attributes, and birthsign (granted, birth signs weren't part of "classes", but they might as well have been).

Starting attributes are just that, starting. They're pretty much irrelevant, since even the 'high' attributes are so low that you can train the really low ones to their level in no time. That is how it's been since Morrowind. Not so much in Daggerfall...
The only lasting effect that you mention is the birthsign, but then you immediately correct yourself by pointing out that it is not a feature of class at all.

Quote
Which would be great, if we could do that now, but we can't.

And you know that based on what? AFAIK no details of the character creation process have been revealed yet, so you're just jumping to conclusions like Amp did. All we know so far is that you don't select favored skills.
Logged

Glowcat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1076 on: February 01, 2011, 07:52:09 am »

Related to the topic of Oblivion's bland class implementation, does anyone know of a mod that changes Attribute or Skill caps depending on your Major Attribute, Race, and Major Skills?
Logged
Totally a weretrain. Very much trains!
I'm going to steamroll this house.

Africa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1077 on: February 01, 2011, 08:33:46 am »

People know that "class" was never really a part of TES in more than name, right? The "classes" you can select are just skill templates. Your character has always been created by selecting which skills you want to use as primary, meaning you start with them being higher than others, and you level up (i.e. increase attributes and gain health and mana points) when enough of those skills are raised.

Skills have always been the name of the game. And being able to mix and match any different skills has always been the name of the game. If you wanted to be a heavy-armor wearing mage who hits things with a massive, heavy sword you always could.

The question isn't, are classes all going to become like each other. The question is, are skills going to be mashed together, and the number of chosen skills reduced, to the point where any character can easily become good at all of them? In Morrowind if you didn't start with a certain skill, it was hard, and took a LOT of in-game time, to get that skill up to where it was usable (unless you abused trainers). It's possible, though, that what with the number of skills going down from whatever it was in Daggerfall, to 27 in Morrowind, to now 18, that it is becoming more and more difficult for characters to differentiate from each other.

I still think the number and type of skills in Daggerfall was the best option though (except the entirely worthless language skills). If you don't know, you got to pick from a very large pool of skills, most of them quite specific. What became Athletics and Acrobatics in Morrowind was originally Running, Jumping, Swimming, Climbing and maybe some others. Dodging was removed and became, I think, a side effect of Agility. Lock picking and pickpocketing were separate. Speechcraft was divided into skills for speaking to all different levels of society. And so on. You could pick three primary skills, three major skills, and five minor skills. In MW of course, they reduced it to 27 skills with the goal that each skill should be useful enough for some character to make it a major skill, and you got to pick five major and five minor. In Oblivion they knocked it down to 21 skills and you just got to pick 7 major ones. Now we've got 18 skills and I'm not sure how many you pick.

Anyway, what was cool about Daggerfall is it allowed characters to be way more differentiated and specialized. Sure, not every skill was good enough that you'd want to use it as a major skill, but who cares? Nobody is going to role-play an Olympic swimmer, but it's cool that you can have your character be above average in swimming. Or climbing or whatever.

Daggerfall's "perk" system was also cooler, I think. In Morrowind and Oblivion you got to pick a birthsign that gave you certain advantages (and sometimes disadvantages) and/or activated abilities. They were pretty unbalanced in Morrowind, but less so in Oblivion. But in Daggerfall you could pick from a long list of handicaps and bonuses, each worth a certain value, and if that value was around zero, the speed at which you levelled up was normal, but if it was higher or lower, you'd level up faster or slower than average. You could pick all kinds of different stuff, like only being able to use magic in daylight or at night, or regaining health when submersed in water, or I can't even remember what else. Once again, a lot of them were broken (99% of fights that mattered happened in dungeons, so being unable to use magic in daylight was almost a free way to be able to afford other bonuses), but the point was there was a ton of customization available. That gets lost the more you "streamline."
Logged
Quote from: Cthulhu
It's like using hobos to fight an eating-resistant baloney epidemic.

Sordid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1078 on: February 01, 2011, 10:24:53 am »

People know that "class" was never really a part of TES in more than name, right?

Arena had pre-defined classes with no custom option and a classic XP-based level progression, but that's ancient history.

Quote
Skills have always been the name of the game. And being able to mix and match any different skills has always been the name of the game. If you wanted to be a heavy-armor wearing mage who hits things with a massive, heavy sword you always could.

Exactly. TES is very much a "be who you want to be" kind of game. That goes for the options that are available to you in the world (ie. guilds and factions), but also character creation and advancement.

Quote
Now we've got 18 skills and I'm not sure how many you pick.

If I understand it correctly, you don't pick any. There's no class and no skill selection, you just do what you do and gradually get better at it. Not really sure how they intend to implement level progression into that, though. To be honest I welcome that with open arms. I've always despised the completely artificial and arbitrary concept of 'class' in rpgs, and I'm glad a developer finally has enough balls to get rid of it. Maybe it won't work in the end, but I think it is worthwhile as an experiment if nothing else.

Quote
Anyway, what was cool about Daggerfall is it allowed characters to be way more differentiated and specialized. Sure, not every skill was good enough that you'd want to use it as a major skill, but who cares? Nobody is going to role-play an Olympic swimmer, but it's cool that you can have your character be above average in swimming. Or climbing or whatever.

I don't think cluttering the game up with pointless skills makes it any better. Swimming became worthless once you learned to cast/found an item enchanted with water breathing, ditto with climbing and levitation. I'm perfectly fine with activities such as these being lumped into athletics.

Quote
There was a ton of customization available. That gets lost the more you "streamline."

Again, I don't think that's necessarily the case. With a perk system, it would be very easy to put in some of these options in the form of perks that you can select only during character creation (much like Neverwinter Nights and its Feats). We'll have to wait and see.
Logged

Sensei

  • Bay Watcher
  • Haven't tried coffee crisps.
    • View Profile
Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #1079 on: February 01, 2011, 10:28:31 am »

Protip: Neverwinter Nights is just DnD for your computer. You get feats when you level up (every other level, plus bonus feats a lot of classes give you).
Logged
Let's Play: Automation! Bay 12 Motor Company Buy the 1950 Urist Wagon for just $4500! Safety features optional.
The Bay 12 & Mates Discord Join now! Voice/text chat and play games with other Bay12'ers!
Add me on Steam: [DFC] Sensei
Pages: 1 ... 70 71 [72] 73 74 ... 201