Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[G-Flex]

i never used spears at all in morrowind, they're like two-handed swords but shittier and besides the only people who use spears in video games are faceless redshirts who die the second a monster sneezes on them.

if you character specialized in spears then you made them wrong and might as well start over and do it right this time (alchemist wizard)

Balance issues. It's nobody's fault but Bethesda's that they couldn't properly balance different weapon types or make them suitably distinct from one another.

or hell just use magic, melee is for chumps who don't know how to play morrowind.

Damage-dealing magic was sorely underbalanced in Morrowind. In fact, it was kind of a pain in the ass. Melee, enchantment, and alchemy were king.

[Frumple]

How2playMorrowind: Abuse Soultrap glitch. Give self 10k luck. . Profit.

Re: Spears. To quote probably a half-dozen different people, "If the sword is the king of the battlefield, the staff is the queen." Chess reference, o'course. A spear is a pointy staff. A polearm is a staff with interesting pointy and/or choppy and/or smashy things at one or both ends. Spears are far more awesome than swords, but arguably less phallic heroic and more a symbol of everyone on this board peasantry than slavers tyrants the nobility. +1 for pointy sticks. /sage nod

Actually, wasn't there already a spat a bit back about spears being in the elder scrolls games? Maybe it was th'oblivion thread...

[BuriBuriZaemon]

Sordid, why do you insist swords are cooler than other weapons? Have you thought of people being able to roleplay in an RPG game and they all have different preferred weapons? Do you think having everyone using a sword is cool? That's like forcing everyone to drive a black-colored car.

[Tilla]

Using your own logic Sordid, Swords are just enlarged knives. This you willfully ignored to make your overzealous point. And Knives are tools too.

[Jack A T]

I like spears.  Mount and Blade made me really like spears.

Spears have one really cool advantage in melee combat: range.  You can keep that sword-wielding guy away with a spear.   Spears are long.

[BuriBuriZaemon]

Exactly, Sordid and his swords are overrated.

Spears have their own unique gameplay characteristics, making them worth including in any combat-based games. Oh wait, our opinions don't count because we are not Sordid.

[Sensei]

Everyone knows that it's important to have a big, long spear, even if you don't fight often. Be sure to have to have the maid keep it polished, too.

[KaguroDraven]

I'm going to outright admit that Sordid DOES make a few small points. All weapons other than the sword DID evolve from simple tools for other things, the sword was invented for the sole purpose of ending human lives. Many people DO imagein swords as the 'coolest' weapons, likely becouse they are the tools of a Warrior. But spears are the tools if a Soldier, and contrary to what some may beleive Soldiers and Warriors are not the same thing. While a Warrior might be better one on one, might being the main word, Soldiers just get better the more other Soldiers they work with, while Warriors just stay the same no matter how many others they work with. Spears are the weapons of Soldiers, you can fight on your own, even againsts multible people, with a sword and perhaps a shield, a spear? You need allies or to be on a horse for them to be used to their very best. I personily like spears more, they can be used as a Warriors weapon, but you need more skill to do so than you would for a sword.

[LoSboccacc]

I like spears.  Mount and Blade made me really like spears.

Spears have one really cool advantage in melee combat: range.  You can keep that sword-wielding guy away with a spear.   Spears are long.

sadly spears in games are handled awfully bad. even in mount and blade you can basically thrust them and not really anything else.

also developer fears "balance" issues so gamey spears are almost without exception super slow in every move.

[Sordid]

Just because some people do not think that spears are cool does not mean that they should not be included at all.

Just because some people think spears should be included despite the fact that almost nobody wants them does not mean that they should be included.

Can you back that up? At all?

Oooh, well done removing the original quote that I was responding to. Well I've added it back to restore the proper context. If you want backing up, I suggest you start at the top of the quote chain.

Why does the name of the skill matter that much, anyway? Or of the items themselves?

If they don't matter, then why are you so staunchly defending splitting the skills and including spears?

Note that there are more spears than there are, say, 2-handed maces or 2-handed swords. It's hardly just a silly niche weapon.

Um, there are just as many throwing weapons as there are spear weapons. You don't mean to tell me throwing weapons are a more major way of inflicting damage on monsters than claymores, do you?

Yet there are people disagreeing with you here, and not many agreeing. What exactly are you basing this opinion of yours on?

Yeah, I realize my words in favor of simplification posted on a forum dedicated to an astonishingly overengineered world simulation are likely to fall on deaf ears. What else is new.

Let me get this straight. Carrying a forged steel mace, or a halberd, or a pike, or a war hammer makes you look like a peasant?

It makes me feel like one. It's a matter of opinion, though.

Jesus, you're starting to sound like some kind of weird weapon fundamentalist. I didn't think those existed, but it should suffice to say that not everyone feels as strongly as you do about this.

Are you even paying attention? I'm the one mocking you guys for being anal about weapon skills.

A certain level of abstraction is necessary, but enough is enough and lumping all weapon types into one or two skills is, in the opinion of myself and literally everyone I've talked to about this, too much.

I assume you've only talked about this to other people on this forum. Because in case you haven't noticed, TES games sell quite well. So I guess all those millions of people who bought Oblivion don't really mind.

Have you thought of people being able to roleplay in an RPG game and they all have different preferred weapons?

No. See the distinction between computer RPGs (specifically TES) and tabletop RPGs I made earlier. With a few exceptions, people don't play cRPGs to roleplay, they play them to raise their numbers, get the sword with the biggest numbers, and then use their numbers to decrease enemy numbers. /yahtzee

Using your own logic Sordid, Swords are just enlarged knives. This you willfully ignored to make your overzealous point. And Knives are tools too.

While that is technically true, the sword is evolved way past the critical point of everyday usefulness. You could take a battle axe and use it to chop wood without much difficulty. You could not use a sword to cut your food without a great deal of difficulty.

Everyone knows that it's important to have a big, long spear, even if you don't fight often. Be sure to have to have the maid keep it polished, too.

Lord Vivec agrees. 

Many people DO imagein swords as the 'coolest' weapons, likely becouse they are the tools of a Warrior. But spears are the tools if a Soldier, and contrary to what some may beleive Soldiers and Warriors are not the same thing. While a Warrior might be better one on one, might being the main word, Soldiers just get better the more other Soldiers they work with, while Warriors just stay the same no matter how many others they work with.

So where exactly do the Roman legions fit into this? They fought with swords and relied heavily on formations.

Spears are the weapons of Soldiers, you can fight on your own, even againsts multible people, with a sword and perhaps a shield, a spear? You need allies or to be on a horse for them to be used to their very best. I personily like spears more, they can be used as a Warriors weapon, but you need more skill to do so than you would for a sword.

So basically you can't fight one against many with a spear. Except that you can. Right. Got it.
And I have small points. Sheesh.

[KaguroDraven]

As I said, they are the weapon of Warriors and spears are weapons of Soldiers, but where as a good Warrior can weild a spear just as well, or better, than a sword, a good Soldier can easily use a sword, and they are an intrigal part of a battlefield.

[Jack A T]

That, and the Romans wielded spears as well as swords.

All I'm saying is that spears, if done well, deserve to be part of the game.  And that just having swords and swords alone is rather boring.

[Nivim]

 I would have really liked switching to and using a boar spear whenever I encountered anything charging me in Morrowind. I would have also really enjoyed doing so with Bitter Mercy. Twisting said trident-spear would be harder, but would cause significantly more tearing and pain. It appears...that no mod adds that primary ability of immobilizing impalement.

[G-Flex]

Oooh, well done removing the original quote that I was responding to. Well I've added it back to restore the proper context. If you want backing up, I suggest you start at the top of the quote chain.

I removed the original quote because I don't like cluttering posts. I was contesting your claim that "almost nobody wants them".

If they don't matter, then why are you so staunchly defending splitting the skills and including spears?

The names don't matter. The skills themselves, and what they cover, does.

Um, there are just as many throwing weapons as there are spear weapons. You don't mean to tell me throwing weapons are a more major way of inflicting damage on monsters than claymores, do you?

Yes, they are less of a niche than claymores, because "claymore" is very specific. Hell, I don't think I ever used claymores.

Yeah, I realize my words in favor of simplification posted on a forum dedicated to an astonishingly overengineered world simulation are likely to fall on deaf ears. What else is new.

It would matter less if you weren't making the argument that "almost nobody" wants spears. You say that, yet clearly there are plenty who do, including most people I've talked to about the game on places other than this forum.

It makes me feel like one. It's a matter of opinion, though.

Right. Now stop pretending your opinion is everyone's.

I assume you've only talked about this to other people on this forum.

Incorrect.

Because in case you haven't noticed, TES games sell quite well. So I guess all those millions of people who bought Oblivion don't really mind.

The popularity of something is not an argument for or against its quality. I didn't like the Michael Bay "Transformers" movies either.

Sometimes, something is made more accessible, thus appealing to (and being purchased by) more people despite a trade-off in the quality of whatever aspects of it made it appeal to its core audience in the first place.

No. See the distinction between computer RPGs (specifically TES) and tabletop RPGs I made earlier. With a few exceptions, people don't play cRPGs to roleplay, they play them to raise their numbers, get the sword with the biggest numbers, and then use their numbers to decrease enemy numbers. /yahtzee

I don't really think this was the kind of game Morrowind -- or even Oblivion -- tried to be, at all. Sorry, but when I think "powergamey hack-and-slash" one of the last things to come to mind is Morrowind.



For what it's worth, swords are very, very, very far from the end-all be-all of medieval combat. I don't care what the movies and books have led us to believe; I'm pretty sure that certain other weapons (such as some kinds of military hammers) came into greater use when heavier armor started to become popular.

[Sordid]

As I said, they are the weapon of Warriors and spears are weapons of Soldiers, but where as a good Warrior can weild a spear just as well, or better, than a sword, a good Soldier can easily use a sword, and they are an intrigal part of a battlefield.

So the Warrior can wield the Soldier's weapon better than his own, and the Soldier can use the Warrior's weapon as well? Right, right... So what exactly is the difference between them? And what's your point? Because I don't seem to get it.

I removed the original quote because I don't like cluttering posts. I was contesting your claim that "almost nobody wants them".

Based that on a quick search of the available mods for Oblivion and a skim of some forums. It seems to me graphical and balancing overhaul mods are in a waaay greater demand than spear mods.

Yes, they are less of a niche than claymores, because "claymore" is very specific. Hell, I don't think I ever used claymores.

Oh come on, you know perfectly well that "claymore" is Bethsoft-speak for "two handed sword other than a daikatana". That was a totally lame dodge on your part, and I'd like you to address the point.

It would matter less if you weren't making the argument that "almost nobody" wants spears. You say that, yet clearly there are plenty who do, including most people I've talked to about the game on places other than this forum.

This is a small forum, and I guess you frequent different social circles than I do. I don't know a single person who has any interest in spears being in TES.

Right. Now stop pretending your opinion is everyone's.

For the second time, I never said that. I'm not going to repeat that for a third time, if you bring this straw man up again I'm simply going to ignore it.

The popularity of something is not an argument for or against its quality. I didn't like the Michael Bay "Transformers" movies either.

Actually in certain cases it kinda is. See, it's entertainment. The quality of entertainment is determined by how well it can entertain people, and that in turn is indicated by how well the entertainment sells. I would've thought this to be obvious. Just because you didn't like the Transformers movie doesn't mean a lot of other people didn't enjoy it (and for the record, I didn't even see it and I don't plan to). You accuse me of treating my own opinion as that of everyone, and yet here you are treating your own opinion as an objective measure of quality.

Sometimes, something is made more accessible, thus appealing to (and being purchased by) more people despite a trade-off in the quality of whatever aspects of it made it appeal to its core audience in the first place.

See my earlier point about designing in a way that makes sense for most people most of the time. Catering to a niche audience is something an indie game like DF can afford, not a tripple A title. In actual fact, the earlier TES games weren't designed for a niche audience either, they were complex because complex dungeon crawls were fashionable at the time. The problem isn't that Bethsoft is ignoring the core audience, it's that the core audience is stuck in a fifteen year old mindset.

I don't really think this was the kind of game Morrowind -- or even Oblivion -- tried to be, at all. Sorry, but when I think "powergamey hack-and-slash" one of the last things to come to mind is Morrowind.

And yet when it came out it'd been described as an "offline MMO".

For what it's worth, swords are very, very, very far from the end-all be-all of medieval combat. I don't care what the movies and books have led us to believe; I'm pretty sure that certain other weapons (such as some kinds of military hammers) came into greater use when heavier armor started to become popular.

Of course they did. The sword was never a mainstream weapon of the common footsoldier, it was a nobleman's weapon. But that just serves to make it all the more cool.