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[Glowcat]

You know why spears went away in Oblivion? Because they're useless and nobody likes them. Face it, 99.9% of players outfit their character with a sword. The blunt weapons skill is useless for the same reason, and if Bethsoft are getting rid of it in favor of something actually useful, then I say that's a good thing. See, nobody ever uses maces. Therefore the character is not skilled with them, and therefore if there ever comes a situation in which using a mace would be advantageous the player still won't use one because their character sucks with them.

If your argument is that Bethesda failed to implement weapons in a way that made them constantly useful but different, and that they should remove the weapon options outright because players would always choose one weapon over the others, then I suggest you re-examine where the problem lies. There is no inherent failure in the spear concept that demands its removal and perhaps if Bethesda's design team had implemented true variation in weaponry then their game's combat wouldn't be as bland as it turned out to be.

I would almost agree with you on language skills if they couldn't be used to guide the player's exploration progress in the game. However, to do those skills justice there would have to be A LOT of content, so I can see why it makes more sense to cut them outright for most AAA games that suffer from strict deadlines. Failing to implement an interesting diversity in combat choices however brings about a state of unfun, which is exactly what games cannot afford to be.

Skyrim is shaping up to be a further inbred member of the Elder Scrolls family, and I'm quickly losing interest.

[Tellemurius]

well shit, thank you for that comment you ass.

You're the one who started being snide, I'm merely responding in kind.

where did you get that impression? i agreed with your statement in the end, in no way was that post meant to be hostile to you, just a nudge.

[Farseer]

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/28/skyrim-menu-system-overhaul.aspx

Hm...

From this, I got:-

• Useless waste of time feature: Stars in the sky change based on your skills.
• Hilariously ugly and stupid menu that would've been better in Fable 3.
• Bethesda are still concentrating on consoletards.

At least we can still alter menu GUIs, right?

[Sensei]

Here's my assessment of melee throughout the games in regard to weapons:

In Arena and Daggerfall, combat was based on using a high-tech computer-mouse (it's a device that you hold it your hand and slide on your desk!) to perform different attacks.

Morrowind tried to make a (pretty pointless) take on that with doing different attacks depending on what direction your character was moving. You also "charged up" and did stronger attacks after you spent some time blocking.

Oblivion removed the to-hit roll entirely (a lot of players didn't miss it). The downside to this though, was that weapon skills didn't govern much more than damage, and harder enemies simply had to have more health. To block though, it also made combat MUCH more rhythm-based. In addition, the "charge up" time for a power attack is no longer done while blocking, so you have to choose what to do, and the power attacks move you in directions so you have to think about where you're standing when you use them (an improvement on the Morrowind system), for example having to move backwards, and therefore requiring the enemy to chase you, for a knockdown attack (the fact that this was weak because it had a to-hit for the knockdown is another issue). Anyway, as a result, reflexes and even thinking help with melee combat. But what's more, the speed and reach of a weapon now became important, allowing for a good differentiation between swords and daggers even if they used the same skill. The specific balancing could have been done better to encourage all weapons to be used, but the philosophy is present.

With any luck, Skyrim's system could return spears as a long-reach weapon that only does good damage while stabbing. Maces, for example, would be faster and shorter ranged than warhammers (the fact that what the Elder Scrolls series calls a warhammer is actually a maul notwithstanding).

Anyway, Skyrim still has big potential to have a thoughtful, if more reflex-based than previous games, combat system.

[Farseer]

You know why spears went away in Oblivion? Because they're useless and nobody likes them. Face it, 99.9% of players outfit their character with a sword.

You're an idiot. The reason they removed spears was because the animations are far too different from every other combat style, not because no one used them. Spears should've been in the game from the start using a combination of staff and sword animations.

There are so many mods adding in spears (about the same as the amount of dual wield mods) in Oblivion, that's it's just silly to say that no one likes spears.

Seriously. I hate it when people are like "LOL SPEARS WAT ARE THEY GOOD FOR".

[Sensei]

Yeah- as a long-reach weapon, they'd have fit great in Oblivion's combat system.

[Sordid]

If your argument is that Bethesda failed to implement weapons in a way that made them constantly useful but different, and that they should remove the weapon options outright because players would always choose one weapon over the others, then I suggest you re-examine where the problem lies. There is no inherent failure in the spear concept that demands its removal and perhaps if Bethesda's design team had implemented true variation in weaponry then their game's combat wouldn't be as bland as it turned out to be.

There is an inherent failure in the spear concept, namely that it's not very cool. A sword, that's the weapon of a hero. The spear is the weapon of a half-naked savage. Players don't choose swords because they're better, they choose them because they're cooler. Bethsoft didn't fail to implement them in a way that made them useful in Morrowind; the Spear of Bitter Mercy, for instance, is the weapon wih the second highest damage rating in the game (the first being Sunder, the difference being that you're not getting that for a long, long time, whereas you can get the spear pretty much right away if you know how). The problem is that a spear is just... a stick with a sharp bit at the end. There are very few games that have managed to make players use such uncool weapons, and even then it's for the most part by simply not providing any swords (case in point: Planescape Torment).
Note that the above applies exclusively to computer RPGs. Tabletop roleplaying games are a totally different animal. I wouldn't even call TES roleplaying games, since you don't play any actual role in them. They're just sandbox games, the protagonist is purposely left completely blank in terms of history and personality. It's supposedly so that you can project yourself into the game and be who you want to be. And most players want to fight with swords.
To me it seems self-evident that good design is one that makes sense for most of the people most of the time. You can't design games (or any other things, for that matter) for the exception and expect success.

I would almost agree with you on language skills if they couldn't be used to guide the player's exploration progress in the game. However, to do those skills justice there would have to be A LOT of content, so I can see why it makes more sense to cut them outright for most AAA games that suffer from strict deadlines.

You know what these skills did? When you came in range of a monster, the skill would be checked. If you got a successful roll, the monster would not turn hostile. That's it. That's all they did. No actual active use by the player, no role in conversations, completely inconsequential. Good riddance, I say.

Failing to implement an interesting diversity in combat choices however brings about a state of unfun, which is exactly what games cannot afford to be.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you divide up weapons into a whole bunch of categories, the end result is that the character specializes in one very narrowly defined type, thereby limiting the choices the player can make.

You know why spears went away in Oblivion? Because they're useless and nobody likes them. Face it, 99.9% of players outfit their character with a sword.

You're an idiot. The reason they removed spears was because the animations are far too different from every other combat style, not because no one used them.

Yes, that's my point. The animations are too different and very few people would use them anyway, so it was more worthwhile to invest the resources into making something else that more people would use. But I guess you failed to grasp that.

There are so many mods adding in spears (about the same as the amount of dual wield mods) in Oblivion, that's it's just silly to say that no one likes spears.

Uh-huh. Let's take a look, shall we? Searching for "spear" on texnexus turns up ten mods, the most popular of which (Spears of Cyrodiil) has a grand total of... *drumroll* ...five thousand downloads. Whereas a Frostmourne mod, which adds a new sword, has four hundred thousand downloads. Yeah, spears are really popular in the modding community.

[AntiAntiMatter]

Just because some people do not think that spears are cool does not mean that they should not be included at all. As for the Frostmourne mod, that's far from fair. Find a mod that adds non-artifact, not-related-to-another-franchise swords for your comparison.

[Javarock]

Just because some people do not think that spears are cool does not mean that they should not be included at all. As for the Frostmourne mod, that's far from fair. Find a mod that adds non-artifact, not-related-to-another-franchise swords for your comparison.

At Least I hope artifact weapons are not scaled to your level... Got fucking annoying when I beat the game at level 10 got the dragon armour, Whitch had -some- not much lore behind it...

Then I figure out it would have been better if i got it at level Twenty five or thirty five, And trade it up for demoria armour... I mean it was extremly annoying....

[G-Flex]

You know why spears went away in Oblivion? Because they're useless and nobody likes them. Face it, 99.9% of players outfit their character with a sword.

You're an idiot. The reason they removed spears was because the animations are far too different from every other combat style, not because no one used them. Spears should've been in the game from the start using a combination of staff and sword animations.

Also: If they were useless, it was because Morrowind had implementation problems. "Spears were useless in Morrowind!" isn't a reason to get rid of spears; it's a reason to make spears distinct from other weapons.

There is an inherent failure in the spear concept, namely that it's not very cool. A sword, that's the weapon of a hero. The spear is the weapon of a half-naked savage.

Er. What? According to who? And do your realize that the "spear" class encompasses other polearms as well (the skill name is a tad misleading)?

Players don't choose swords because they're better, they choose them because they're cooler. Bethsoft didn't fail to implement them in a way that made them useful in Morrowind; the Spear of Bitter Mercy, for instance, is the weapon wih the second highest damage rating in the game (the first being Sunder, the difference being that you're not getting that for a long, long time, whereas you can get the spear pretty much right away if you know how).

Swords were better. The Spear of Bitter Mercy does the same damage when fully prepped as the daedric dai-katana, and the dai-katana can hold a useful on-strike enchantment, which the Spear of Bitter Mercy lacks. And that thing's an artifact. Oh, and the dai-katana is faster.

If you check the UESP pages for weapon stats, you'll notice that there's a bit of poor balance going on, and that long blades win out.

The problem is that a spear is just... a stick with a sharp bit at the end. There are very few games that have managed to make players use such uncool weapons, and even then it's for the most part by simply not providing any swords (case in point: Planescape Torment).

Why do you pretend that your own personal tastes are those of everyone else? Do you know what I think? I think swords are boring. They're overused and cliche. The reason you think swords are COOL WARRIOR WEAPONS is because you've been conditioned by fantasy fiction. There's nothing magical about a sword that makes it "cooler" than a spear.

Oh, and again, you're forgetting every other potential and actual polearm in existence.

To me it seems self-evident that good design is one that makes sense for most of the people most of the time. You can't design games (or any other things, for that matter) for the exception and expect success.

In a sandbox RPG like TES, yes, you do implement content that not everybody will see. If you only implement the most popular choices, that sort of game loses its appeal very fast.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you divide up weapons into a whole bunch of categories, the end result is that the character specializes in one very narrowly defined type, thereby limiting the choices the player can make.

God forbid your character can't literally do everything. Yes, your character has to specialize... so what? This is already the case with other skills. It's also not incredibly difficult to level up a couple different melee skills, and it provides more flavor to your character when he's actually good at some specific thing instead of something as general as "hitting things with other things".

[Sordid]

At Least I hope artifact weapons are not scaled to your level... Got fucking annoying when I beat the game at level 10 got the dragon armour, Whitch had -some- not much lore behind it...

Then I figure out it would have been better if i got it at level Twenty five or thirty five, And trade it up for demoria armour... I mean it was extremly annoying....

Supposedly level scaling is more like that of Fallout 3 than Oblivion, whatever that means... Anyone got any details on how exactly scaling worked in F3?
Also: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5701

Just because some people do not think that spears are cool does not mean that they should not be included at all.

Just because some people think spears should be included despite the fact that almost nobody wants them does not mean that they should be included.

As for the Frostmourne mod, that's far from fair. Find a mod that adds non-artifact, not-related-to-another-franchise swords for your comparison.

How is it not fair? I don't see how Frostmourne being from another franchise is in any way relevant. The demand for a non-artifact sword is even more ridiculous, even in completely vanilla Oblivion you stop using non-artifact weapons at level 15 (ie. when you're allowed to do Mephala's piss-easy quest and get the Ebony Blade).

There is an inherent failure in the spear concept, namely that it's not very cool. A sword, that's the weapon of a hero. The spear is the weapon of a half-naked savage.

Er. What? According to who? And do your realize that the "spear" class encompasses other polearms as well (the skill name is a tad misleading)?

History.
And yes, I do realize the class encompasses other polearms. But then I fail to see why it's named "spear" and not "polearm". I guess it's a Bethsoft thing, like gaining "fatigue" by resting and losing it by exerting yourself.
If you want to get into details, the only other spear weapon in MW was the halberd, and only the steel and glass ones were really halberds. The iron 'halberd' was actually a voulge and the dwemer one was a glaive.

Swords were better. The Spear of Bitter Mercy does the same damage when fully prepped as the daedric dai-katana, and the dai-katana can hold a useful on-strike enchantment, which the Spear of Bitter Mercy lacks. And that thing's an artifact. Oh, and the dai-katana is faster.

Y'know, I never ever used on-strike enchantments, so that didn't figure into my assessment.
I also tend to forget that there's no disenchant mod for Morrowind. And yes, I tend to disenchant my artifacts, because I hate that whoosh-whoosh sound of a weapon with no charges, and charging the damn thing after every fight gets old fast.

Why do you pretend that your own personal tastes are those of everyone else?

I don't. I do maintain that they coincide with the tastes of the vast majority.

Do you know what I think? I think swords are boring. They're overused and cliche. The reason you think swords are COOL WARRIOR WEAPONS is because you've been conditioned by fantasy fiction. There's nothing magical about a sword that makes it "cooler" than a spear.

Incorrect. A sword is a weapon of war, it's almost completely useless outside of battle. A spear, at least originally, is a hunter's tool. An axe is a lumberjack's tool. A mace is just a type of club, which is a stick. That's why swords are cooler, they're weapons. Carrying a sword means you're a warrior by trade. The other weapon types are glorified tools, carrying them means you're a peasant who got pressed into military service.

Oh, and again, you're forgetting every other potential and actual polearm in existence.

Actually that's Bethsoft. Coz they, y'know, lumped voulges and halberds into a spear skill, even though the fighting style is significantly different. Do you think they should each have their own separate skill?

In a sandbox RPG like TES, yes, you do implement content that not everybody will see. If you only implement the most popular choices, that sort of game loses its appeal very fast.

See, yes. Use, no. This goes right back to what I was saying about removing useless things and replacing them with useful ones. It was nice to have spears in Morrowind, since it added flavor. But it was one of the skills I never ever used, so if they (hypothetically) remove it and lump spears in with other two-handed weapons, then that means one less useless skill and one more usable weapon option for me.

God forbid your character can't literally do everything. Yes, your character has to specialize... so what? This is already the case with other skills. It's also not incredibly difficult to level up a couple different melee skills, and it provides more flavor to your character when he's actually good at some specific thing instead of something as general as "hitting things with other things".

I still don't see your point. Haven't we already established that there has to be some level of abstraction? Even if we went back to long blade and short blade skills that would still leave weapons grouped together that have little in common in how they're used.

Bah, whatever. You know, this really doesn't bother me much. Do we have short blade and long blade skills, a single blade skill, or one handed and two handed weapons skills? I really can't bring myself to care. I'm much more worried about other aspects of the game. Will we have open cities? How about open dungeons without ridiculous doors fitted to every cave entrance? A completely seamless world without interior-exterior cell transitions would be very nice. What I would really like them to do is get rid of the glitchy and pointless Havok physics engine and put back an easy to use way of placing items in the world. And fix the damn alchemy already.

[G-Flex]

Just because some people think spears should be included despite the fact that almost nobody wants them does not mean that they should be included.

Can you back that up? At all?

And yes, I do realize the class encompasses other polearms. But then I fail to see why it's named "spear" and not "polearm". I guess it's a Bethsoft thing, like gaining "fatigue" by resting and losing it by exerting yourself.
If you want to get into details, the only other spear weapon in MW was the halberd, and only the steel and glass ones were really halberds. The iron 'halberd' was actually a voulge and the dwemer one was just a spear.

Why does the name of the skill matter that much, anyway? Or of the items themselves?

At any rate:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Base_Weapons
Note that there are more spears than there are, say, 2-handed maces or 2-handed swords. It's hardly just a silly niche weapon.

I don't. I do maintain that they coincide with the tastes of the vast majority.

Yet there are people disagreeing with you here, and not many agreeing. What exactly are you basing this opinion of yours on?

Incorrect. A sword is a weapon of war, it's almost completely useless outside of battle.

So are most of the other weapons in the game.

A spear, at least originally, is a hunter's tool. An axe is a lumberjack's tool. A mace is just a type of club, which is a stick. That's why swords are cooler, they're weapons. Carrying a sword means you're a warrior by trade. The other weapon types are glorified tools, carrying them means you're a peasant who got pressed into military service.

Let me get this straight. Carrying a forged steel mace, or a halberd, or a pike, or a war hammer makes you look like a peasant?

Jesus, you're starting to sound like some kind of weird weapon fundamentalist. I didn't think those existed, but it should suffice to say that not everyone feels as strongly as you do about this.

Actually that's Bethsoft. Coz they, y'know, lumped voulges and halberds into a spear skill, even though the fighting style is significantly different. Do you think they should each have their own separate skill?

No. I think a polearm skill is sufficient.

See, yes. Use, no. This goes right back to what I was saying about removing useless things and replacing them with useful ones. It was nice to have spears in Morrowind, since it added flavor. But it was one of the skills I never ever used, so if they (hypothetically) remove it and lump spears in with other two-handed weapons, then that means one less useless skill and one more usable weapon option for me.

You are not every player. I never used certain schools of magic much, but I sure as hell wouldn't consider them "useless". The game doesn't revolve around what things you in particular used or didn't use.

I still don't see your point. Haven't we already established that there has to be some level of abstraction? Even if we went back to long blade and short blade skills that would still leave weapons grouped together that have little in common in how they're used.

They had more in common than what we see here. Yes, a certain level of abstraction is necessary, but enough is enough and lumping all weapon types into one or two skills is, in the opinion of myself and literally everyone I've talked to about this, too much.

Bah, whatever. You know, this really doesn't bother me much. Do we have short blade and long blade skills, a single blade skill, or one handed and two handed weapons skills? I really can't bring myself to care.

You certainly seem to!

[subject name here]

i never used spears at all in morrowind, they're like two-handed swords but shittier and besides the only people who use spears in video games are faceless redshirts who die the second a monster sneezes on them.

if you character specialized in spears then you made them wrong and might as well start over and do it right this time (alchemist wizard)

[Tellemurius]

my brother used a spear to take out Almalexia by spam-attacks.

[subject name here]

that's inspring but he could of done it much faster if he used a two handed sword.

or hell just use magic, melee is for chumps who don't know how to play morrowind.