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Author Topic: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 264938 times)

Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #615 on: January 17, 2011, 03:43:04 am »

"Demons from hell are attacking for no reason, fetch the MacGuffin that will stop them" schlock. And I'm not exaggerating here, that was the whole plot.

I do believe there was a reason for the daedra for invading, and a rather important one at that. The blood of the royal family (and thence Akatosh) no longer held the Imperial throne, and thus they were able to invade for purposes of conquest. I didn't like the MacGuffin either, but at least I can admit that there was a reason for it.

That's not a reason, that's just an opportunity. Why would they want to invade and conquer? I don't recall any reason being given within the game.

I think a lot of the Oblivion hate, like Deus Ex 2 hate, boils down to the game being console oriented, whereas its predecessor was PC oriented.

I don't think so. I like console gameplay, I even bought myself a PS3 gamepad to be able to enjoy console ports properly on my PC without having to rely on the clunky keyboard and mouse control (I'm looking at you, GTA4). I don't really mind the gameplay, or the lack of complex dialogs, or even the horrible interface. From my point of view, it's simply due to not being a very good game, or at least not as good as the hype machine and its predecessor had us believe it would be.
Don't get me wrong, I tried really really hard to like it. I must've spent hundreds of hours on it, from the inital few vanilla play-throughs to the several attempts to mod the bajeezus out of it to fix some of the problems. In the end I always just gave up and abandoned it because it simply didn't absorb me the way Morrowind did. I never even finished the Shivering Isles expansion pack. I doubt I'll ever try again either.
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Sensei

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #616 on: January 17, 2011, 03:47:55 am »

didn't absorb me
I must've spent hundreds of hours on it
Hrmmm... :P

But seriously speaking, I get that you didn't get into Oblivion the same way you did with Morrowind. Still, it obviously was entertaining enough for you to play it a lot.
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darkedone02

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #617 on: January 17, 2011, 03:57:13 am »

WHAT!?!
Others, too, have opinions.

His post makes me feel that he never finished Morrowind's Campaign. Since he wanted Skyrim to 2x longer than Oblivion, but 4x longer than Morrowind. Who spent more time on Oblivion's main quest than Morrowind's?

If you read my post, I just said that I didn't complete morrowind because it felt boring to me, and I do believe that cut scenes help make the storyline greater, look at final fantasy and World of Warcraft, and Guild Wars. Cut scene is a great option to go for when making a great storyline, otherwise to me it's nothing more then just meager game for only gameplay filled with repetitiveness.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #618 on: January 17, 2011, 03:58:12 am »

didn't absorb me
I must've spent hundreds of hours on it
Hrmmm... :P

But seriously speaking, I get that you didn't get into Oblivion the same way you did with Morrowind. Still, it obviously was entertaining enough for you to play it a lot.


this happens to me too. I hate oblivion, it feels like a dumbed down version of the dumbest final fantasy, but I just love the game content, the lore, the background everyone have..

and all that coherency, to me, is quite killed from scaled monsters and npcs. so as I get higher on levels the world seems more an abstract painting than a live creature. but hey, it's just an opinion. now that I have found an interesting balance of mods I'm playing it again, and again I'm discovering new stories, new quests, new items, new people...
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #619 on: January 17, 2011, 04:30:39 am »

With me it was more of a hope that perhaps if I persevere it'll get good. It does have quite a few strong points, I'll be the first to admit that. But it's just too... generic. Everything in Morrowind felt unique because it all was unique, and to be honest the first few dozen hours I absolutely hated the alienness of the place. But as I began to understand the cultures it grew on me. And every single niche and corner of the land was constructed by hand, ie. uniqe and memorable. In Oblivion the boring forrested landscape is generated, so it all looks the same and like crap. All the towns look exactly the same, the only memorable ones were Bruma because it had snow and Kvatch because it was on fire. All the NPCs eventually end up with this really creepy grin on their face like some horrible creatures from the depths of the uncanny valley. And I don't understand why, that's what gets me. The lore and setting were already there, for both Cyrodiil and the big bad's plane of Oblivion. But for some mysterious reason Bethsoft decided to retcon them to make them less unique and memorable. I am absolutely baffled by that. I mean... why? Somebody tell me why they did that, I honestly do not understand it.
Also the stupidity and shortness of the main quest may have had something to do with the lingering resentment. I distinctly remember I absolutely adored the game up until I finished the main quest. Quite accidentally, I might add. I thought: "Okay, so I'm going to get that amulet back. Up until now I've just been mowing down some low-level mooks, this is like the first major confrontation with one of the big bad's right hand men. So I'm probably going to kill him, bring the amulet back, then something bad will happen like it'll turn out Boromir isn't actually who we all think he is and he won't be able to wear the damn thing or something, he'll probably even turn out to be a spy of the enemy, and that'll be the end of Act I. And then the story will really start to pick up and get good, we'll get into the usual politicking and intrigue and all that stuff. So I'm just going to get that shiny red bauble back and then leave all that good stuff for later and do some side quests first to prepare for it."
AND THEN THE DAMN THING JUST ENDED!
Now don't get me wrong, I do like a good twist ending. But when the twist is that the story ends one third of the way through, that's just not funny.
After that I could never really be bothered to explore the game world. I'd already finished the game, there was no point. Nothing to look forward to. Morrowind's story is so long and rich that I could replay it several times over and enjoy it each time (not to mention that it actually branches a bit, so to see all of it you have no choice but to play several times), but "demons are attacking, fetch the magic amulet that'll stop them" is lame even the first time.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 04:41:15 am by Sordid »
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #620 on: January 17, 2011, 04:41:43 am »

I'd add that the lameness of he main quests is exacerbate by the fact that you're required to go trough HELL at level 1, alone, while the imperial guards that could kick your ass trough your brain any time stand just there scripted to die their dramatic death.

and for the thirty damned successive levels, hell never gets easier. or harder. or different. or anything. most of the damned game is enter hell, get the sigil, repeat.
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #621 on: January 17, 2011, 05:41:36 am »

With me it was more of a hope that perhaps if I persevere it'll get good. It does have quite a few strong points, I'll be the first to admit that. But it's just too... generic. Everything in Morrowind felt unique because it all was unique, and to be honest the first few dozen hours I absolutely hated the alienness of the place. But as I began to understand the cultures it grew on me. And every single niche and corner of the land was constructed by hand, ie. uniqe and memorable. In Oblivion the boring forrested landscape is generated, so it all looks the same and like crap. All the towns look exactly the same, the only memorable ones were Bruma because it had snow and Kvatch because it was on fire. All the NPCs eventually end up with this really creepy grin on their face like some horrible creatures from the depths of the uncanny valley. And I don't understand why, that's what gets me. The lore and setting were already there, for both Cyrodiil and the big bad's plane of Oblivion. But for some mysterious reason Bethsoft decided to retcon them to make them less unique and memorable. I am absolutely baffled by that. I mean... why? Somebody tell me why they did that, I honestly do not understand it.
Also the stupidity and shortness of the main quest may have had something to do with the lingering resentment. I distinctly remember I absolutely adored the game up until I finished the main quest. Quite accidentally, I might add. I thought: "Okay, so I'm going to get that amulet back. Up until now I've just been mowing down some low-level mooks, this is like the first major confrontation with one of the big bad's right hand men. So I'm probably going to kill him, bring the amulet back, then something bad will happen like it'll turn out Boromir isn't actually who we all think he is and he won't be able to wear the damn thing or something, he'll probably even turn out to be a spy of the enemy, and that'll be the end of Act I. And then the story will really start to pick up and get good, we'll get into the usual politicking and intrigue and all that stuff. So I'm just going to get that shiny red bauble back and then leave all that good stuff for later and do some side quests first to prepare for it."
AND THEN THE DAMN THING JUST ENDED!
Now don't get me wrong, I do like a good twist ending. But when the twist is that the story ends one third of the way through, that's just not funny.
After that I could never really be bothered to explore the game world. I'd already finished the game, there was no point. Nothing to look forward to. Morrowind's story is so long and rich that I could replay it several times over and enjoy it each time (not to mention that it actually branches a bit, so to see all of it you have no choice but to play several times), but "demons are attacking, fetch the magic amulet that'll stop them" is lame even the first time.

The reason for the retcon seems pretty simple to me.  It's what I've been saying for years.  The fact is, the more generic it is, the more people will relate to it.  Tons of people had a hard time liking Morrowind for the simple fact that it was unique and interesting.  So if unique = less mass appeal = less money, then generic = more mass appeal = more money.  The ret-con was purely a business decision.  Well that's what I assume.  It's always possible that Todd Howard really is as much of an idiot as he sometimes seems to be, but if you listen to the man talk that seems unlikely.
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Sergius

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #622 on: January 17, 2011, 09:49:16 am »

That's not a reason, that's just an opportunity. Why would they want to invade and conquer? I don't recall any reason being given within the game.

Greener pastures? Like, maybe they were running out of light bloom.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #623 on: January 17, 2011, 09:57:33 am »

That's not a reason, that's just an opportunity. Why would they want to invade and conquer? I don't recall any reason being given within the game.

Greener pastures? Like, maybe they were running out of light bloom.
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scriver

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #624 on: January 17, 2011, 10:10:44 am »

Mehrunes wants to destroy Nirn because only then can he go back to being a happy happy Leaper Devil King again. It's all there in the manual unofficial texts.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #625 on: January 17, 2011, 10:31:10 am »

...I do believe that cut scenes help make the storyline greater, look at final fantasy and World of Warcraft, and Guild Wars. Cut scene is a great option to go for when making a great storyline, otherwise to me it's nothing more then just meager game for only gameplay filled with repetitiveness.

I have to disagree with this. Cutscenes are okay, but as a story telling method, I think things like cryptic notes are far more effective. :P The best example I can think of is probably the Shalebridge Cradle in Thief III. It's this huge, imposing, abandoned pseudo-Victorian building, that was first a bleak pseudo-Victorian orphanage and then a bleak pseudo-Victorian insane asylum and then burned down. And for a while, it was both an orphanage and an insane asylum. And it's haunted with more ghosts than you can shake a blackjack at. And the building itself has its own malevolent sentience.

Sounds a bit clichéd, no? Well, the twist is that going in there, you don't know that. You're told that it was an orphanage, and that it was a loony bin, and that there was a fire. You can guess that there is pretty much no way that the place isn't going to be haunted, but you're never explicitly told that, and have absolutely no idea just what you are going to find inside. What happens next is that you meet one of the resident ghosts, start taking creepy missions from her, get further into the building, find some incredibly creepy enemies, go on creepy dream-quests into the building's past, read pages and pages of cryptic notes, and generally figure out on your own what the place's deal is. And because you're figuring it out yourself, it never occurs to you to doubt all the stuff you're digging up, or stop to think about how it's, well, a bit clichéd at places. It's a powerful persuasive technique, used by cult recruiters and game designers alike.

The reason for the retcon seems pretty simple to me.  It's what I've been saying for years.  The fact is, the more generic it is, the more people will relate to it.  Tons of people had a hard time liking Morrowind for the simple fact that it was unique and interesting.  So if unique = less mass appeal = less money, then generic = more mass appeal = more money.  The ret-con was purely a business decision.  Well that's what I assume.  It's always possible that Todd Howard really is as much of an idiot as he sometimes seems to be, but if you listen to the man talk that seems unlikely.

Not convinced about this. I can see people having a hard time liking Morrowind because it's alien with its giant insects and giant mushrooms and whatnot, but "unique and interesting" doesn't require that. You can have memorable scenery in the most generic of pseudo-medieval European fantasy settings. The real medieval Europe had plenty of interesting landmarks. And having interesting and memorable places and characters doesn't result in less mass appeal. Shakespeare wrote his plays for the kind of people who frequented the sleazy part of sixteenth-century London, and he certainly didn't need to make his characters as bland as possible to draw in an audience.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 10:56:28 am by Soadreqm »
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Farseer

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #626 on: January 17, 2011, 10:53:16 am »

If you read my post, I just said that I didn't complete morrowind because it felt boring to me, and I do believe that cut scenes help make the storyline greater, look at final fantasy and World of Warcraft, and Guild Wars. Cut scene is a great option to go for when making a great storyline, otherwise to me it's nothing more then just meager game for only gameplay filled with repetitiveness.

Cutscenes are the realms of poor game design. They don't interact with players at all, and therefore they're terrible. Quicktime events during cutscenes are even worse, however.

GaelicVigil

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #627 on: January 17, 2011, 10:54:57 am »

I don't think Oblivion's generic feeling had to do so much with the medieval setting as much as it had to do with how the world was designed.  There really is nothing but trees and water from one tip of the map to the other, with nothing but cookie-cutter dungeons in between.  The fact that you would still run into the same level-scaled enemies no matter where you went, what was the point exploring?

Take Gothic 2, for example.  This game had the same medieval setting, yet it was so much richer and so much more interesting than Oblivion's world.  A medieval world can be done well, it just wasn't in Oblivion.

I just hope that Skyrim isn't going to be like Oblivion, but with a "Norse" theme pasted on it.  I hope they mix it up a bit.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #628 on: January 17, 2011, 11:27:54 am »

With me it was more of a hope that perhaps if I persevere it'll get good. It does have quite a few strong points, I'll be the first to admit that. But it's just too... generic. Everything in Morrowind felt unique because it all was unique, and to be honest the first few dozen hours I absolutely hated the alienness of the place. But as I began to understand the cultures it grew on me. And every single niche and corner of the land was constructed by hand, ie. uniqe and memorable. In Oblivion the boring forrested landscape is generated, so it all looks the same and like crap. All the towns look exactly the same, the only memorable ones were Bruma because it had snow and Kvatch because it was on fire. All the NPCs eventually end up with this really creepy grin on their face like some horrible creatures from the depths of the uncanny valley. And I don't understand why, that's what gets me. The lore and setting were already there, for both Cyrodiil and the big bad's plane of Oblivion. But for some mysterious reason Bethsoft decided to retcon them to make them less unique and memorable. I am absolutely baffled by that. I mean... why? Somebody tell me why they did that, I honestly do not understand it.
Also the stupidity and shortness of the main quest may have had something to do with the lingering resentment. I distinctly remember I absolutely adored the game up until I finished the main quest. Quite accidentally, I might add. I thought: "Okay, so I'm going to get that amulet back. Up until now I've just been mowing down some low-level mooks, this is like the first major confrontation with one of the big bad's right hand men. So I'm probably going to kill him, bring the amulet back, then something bad will happen like it'll turn out Boromir isn't actually who we all think he is and he won't be able to wear the damn thing or something, he'll probably even turn out to be a spy of the enemy, and that'll be the end of Act I. And then the story will really start to pick up and get good, we'll get into the usual politicking and intrigue and all that stuff. So I'm just going to get that shiny red bauble back and then leave all that good stuff for later and do some side quests first to prepare for it."
AND THEN THE DAMN THING JUST ENDED!
Now don't get me wrong, I do like a good twist ending. But when the twist is that the story ends one third of the way through, that's just not funny.
After that I could never really be bothered to explore the game world. I'd already finished the game, there was no point. Nothing to look forward to. Morrowind's story is so long and rich that I could replay it several times over and enjoy it each time (not to mention that it actually branches a bit, so to see all of it you have no choice but to play several times), but "demons are attacking, fetch the magic amulet that'll stop them" is lame even the first time.

The reason for the retcon seems pretty simple to me.  It's what I've been saying for years.  The fact is, the more generic it is, the more people will relate to it.  Tons of people had a hard time liking Morrowind for the simple fact that it was unique and interesting.  So if unique = less mass appeal = less money, then generic = more mass appeal = more money.  The ret-con was purely a business decision.  Well that's what I assume.  It's always possible that Todd Howard really is as much of an idiot as he sometimes seems to be, but if you listen to the man talk that seems unlikely.

Why are you bringing your trolling over here now that your other thread has been locked?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 11:30:54 am by Shadowlord »
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Virtz

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #629 on: January 17, 2011, 11:33:02 am »

Oh no, someone doesn't like a game I really like. Troll!
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