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[Ephemeriis]

I think you've chosen a bad example. If people can sneak perfectly in full armour, there's something wrong with the relationship between sneaking and armour, not the character advancement system.

I think you misunderstand the example.  The problem isn't specifically that they're sneaking in plate (with the aid of a magic spell).  The problem is that they're super-awesome at everything.

The complaint is that it is possible to become perfect at everything.

It really is fairly trivial to build up a variety of skills and attributes in Oblivion, and to keep them built-up throughout the game.  You wind up with a character that can go into melee combat with pretty much anything, or sneak past just about anything, or snipe just about anything...  It really eliminates any kind of gameplay effect from your character's skills.

I like to play a sneaky marksman type character.

In Morrowind, there were some critters that I absolutely hated.  They'd charge right into combat and rip me up before I could put enough arrows into them to kill them.  Or they'd stay at range and hurl nasty stuff at me.  So I'd have to adapt my gameplay to compensate for that...  I'd have to make sure I had cover to duck behind, or I'd have to open fire from some location that was hard to reach.

In Oblivion, there's basically nothing I hate.  I started out playing that same sneaky marksman type character...  But the occasional melee fight quickly got my melee skills up to speed.  And there wasn't really anything keeping me from wearing heavy armor.  And it was trivially easy to learn some basic protection spells.  So I'd sneak up and snipe what I could...  And what I couldn't, would just get chopped up with my sword.  I didn't need to ensure I had cover.  Didn't need to open fire from a good location.  Just sneak, snipe, slash, loot.

[3]

I think you've chosen a bad example. If people can sneak perfectly in full armour, there's something wrong with the relationship between sneaking and armour, not the character advancement system.

I think you misunderstand the example.  The problem isn't specifically that they're sneaking in plate (with the aid of a magic spell).  The problem is that they're super-awesome at everything.

The complaint is that it is possible to become perfect at everything.

...and in my previous post I suggested a means of addressing said issue?

[Farseer]

The trouble is that it IS the character advancement system that causes the issue. When you start off using stealth, your boots effect your ability to wander about in stealth. When you get to a certain level in stealth (I think it's 75) that goes away. You can now happily clomp around in heavy metal boots without anyone noticing.

The most hilarious part of Oblivion had to be the light / heavy armour skills. When you got to 100 in one of the skills, you'd get a feat that made it EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE OTHER SKILL. So, when you hit 100 in light armour, you got an ability that doubled the protection of all light armour you wear. When you hit 100 in heavy armour, it reduced the weight of any heavy armour you're wearing to the same weight as light armour.

So many of the skills are redundant in a poor way (not as in a "CHOP THEM OUT" way that they seem to be doing now), that I can only shake my head at the game designers who undoubtedly had their vision chopped up by timeframes.

[Kitsunin]

The most hilarious part of Oblivion had to be the light / heavy armour skills. When you got to 100 in one of the skills, you'd get a feat that made it EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE OTHER SKILL. So, when you hit 100 in light armour, you got an ability that doubled the protection of all light armour you wear. When you hit 100 in heavy armour, it reduced the weight of any heavy armour you're wearing to the same weight as light armour.

Actually even at 100 they were a bit different, the best heavy armor was still just a little better for protection than the best light, and master heavy armor skill only halved the weight, whereas with expert light armor it didn't weigh anything at all.  So better heavy armor = slightly better protection for a bit more weight, or light armor for slightly worse protection for a bit less weight.  Sorry, I had to point this out, even though I do agree.
There was NOT enough of a difference between the two for the distinction to be anything but trivial, but yes, they need to add more of a distinction, and not cut one out.  Make it actually make sense to use light armor for sneaky rogue/archers and heavy for charging warriors.  Maybe make robes a viable choice too if you want your protection to come from magic?

[Vel]

I think you misunderstand the example.  The problem isn't specifically that they're sneaking in plate (with the aid of a magic spell).  The problem is that they're super-awesome at everything.

The complaint is that it is possible to become perfect at everything.

It really is fairly trivial to build up a variety of skills and attributes in Oblivion, and to keep them built-up throughout the game.  You wind up with a character that can go into melee combat with pretty much anything, or sneak past just about anything, or snipe just about anything...  It really eliminates any kind of gameplay effect from your character's skills.

I like to play a sneaky marksman type character.

In Morrowind, there were some critters that I absolutely hated.  They'd charge right into combat and rip me up before I could put enough arrows into them to kill them.  Or they'd stay at range and hurl nasty stuff at me.  So I'd have to adapt my gameplay to compensate for that...  I'd have to make sure I had cover to duck behind, or I'd have to open fire from some location that was hard to reach.

In Oblivion, there's basically nothing I hate.  I started out playing that same sneaky marksman type character...  But the occasional melee fight quickly got my melee skills up to speed.  And there wasn't really anything keeping me from wearing heavy armor.  And it was trivially easy to learn some basic protection spells.  So I'd sneak up and snipe what I could...  And what I couldn't, would just get chopped up with my sword.  I didn't need to ensure I had cover.  Didn't need to open fire from a good location.  Just sneak, snipe, slash, loot.

I actually play with the mod 'Oblivion XP' or whatever, which adds an experience-based system to leveling up, and limits the amount of stat points and skill points you can add each level (with settings to change the amount, and how much skills cost based on either everything costing the same or your specialization and major set skills effecting the point cost).


100x better and more fun and balanced than the default system.

[vettkinn]

I'm looking forward for Skyrim, but I hope Bethesda would make real improvements. I played Oblivion, then Fallout 3, then New Vegas and they were pretty much the same, just with different skins and UI. Stats, skills and the leveling system should be improved to make it... non-silly.

Also, despite how the weaklings cry about it over and over again, enemy level scaling should stay to keep it... non-boring.

Peace. May The Nine be with you.

[Duke 2.0]

Also, despite how the weaklings cry about it over and over again, enemy level scaling should stay to keep it... non-boring.

Paradoxally, enemies taking a million hits to kill even with optimized strength, which kinda makes combat...boring.

[vettkinn]

Paradoxally, enemies taking a million hits to kill even with optimized strength, which kinda makes combat...boring.

But, but... I dun wanna keel those poor thieves clad in rags threatening me with their rusty copper knives!  it makes me sad 

[Cheese]

    * New Engine – All objects in the game world will now cast shadows, along with improved draw distances. Environments will seem livelier due to sharper and more detailed textures.
    * Locations – Skyrim will contain 5 massive cities to explore, ranging from frozen tundra to rocky mountain tops. Also keep an eye out for some new wildlife roaming the country side, such as sabre-toothed cats and woolly mammoths.
    * Combat – Running away backwards from opponents whilst attacking will no longer be an option as you will move much slower when walking backwards than forwards (which kinda makes sense). You will now be able to use stamina to sprint away from an enemy, either to escape or reach a tactical vantage point. What you do with your hands is also up to you, with the option to dual wield weapons, equip magic to both hands or go at it with a sword and a shield. A customizable menu will be available to easily swop out load-outs during battle and if this isn't enough a “finishing moves” system, which will be unique to both the weapon used and also the enemy the weapon, is also incorporated.
    * Levelling and Skills – No longer will you be forced to pick a class at the start of the game, instead, upon levelling up you will be rewarded points that can either be spent on health, magicka or stamina. Skills will level up the more that they are used, which will in turn contribute to your overall level growth. The amount of skills in Skyrim is down to 18 from the 21 in Oblivion and the 27 in Morrowind, Bethesda claim that they are trying to accommodate people who want to specialize in a certain profession, such as mage or thief. Also, Mysticism has been removed. Going past level 50 will be possible, but things will go very slowly from that point on.
    * Perks – Levelling up will also grant you perks - something that we’ve already seen in Fallout 3. These perks will add special abilities to your character such as increased stealth dagger damage or giving your mace the ability to ignore the opponents armour.
    * AI – Interactions with NPCs will now seem more real as they move about while you talk to them or they keep doing their business if you interrupted them.
    * Quests – Getting missions from NPCs will be more “dynamic”. If you are a heavy magic user a mage might approach you with a quest, something that would not happen if you are playing a fighter character. Some quests will also be influenced by what you have already accomplished, thus the game will try and send you on a rescue quest to a dungeon you have not previously visited.
    * Town Visiting – There will be more to do in towns, such as farming, mining, woodcutting and cooking. A fast-travel option will also be available to allow you to travel instantly between areas you’ve already visited.
    * Menu and HUD – You will have the option for a HUD-less first person view or an “improved” third person option. The game menu is now a compass style overlay with four options for Skill, Inventory, Map, and Magic. You will also be able to mark certain weapons and magic for quick selection.

meh
Also, a bunch of leaked screenshots and stuff.
On the bright side, it looks better, and THI4F looks set for a GDC reveal (what is that) next month.

Is this new information?

[GaelicVigil]

The biggest thing that is bothering me so far with Skyrim is how they've nerfed the class and skill systems yet again.  I think Morrowind had the best skill/xp system ever designed in a video game.  There were enough of them that allowed you to feel like you could be practically anything you wanted, yet there were not too many to make you feel like some were useless.

I was hoping that Skyrim would go back to the big Morrowind skill list again, but alas, RPGs are now mainstream and need to be dumbed down for the masses.  I just don't understand why they seem to need to fix something that was never broken to begin with.

I liked the ability to make up your own totally unique class.  My favorite build was a "Treasure Hunter" like Locke from Final Fantasy 6.  It pisses me off quite a bit that we all have to be "Dragonborn" in Skyrim.  Isn't that the same new class that D&D purists hated that got put 4th edition?

What's with every RPG developer theming out their games with Dragons lately?  Seriously: Dragon Age, Guild Wars 2 and new Skyrim?  I love dragons and all, but the sheer amount of "OUR GAME HAS DRAGONS!!!!11!11!! YOU CAN FLY THEM, YOU CAN BE ONE, OMG!!...DID I MENTION OUR GAME HAS DRAGONS!"

Considering that Consoles are about 6 years behind PCs now, I am not expecting Skyrim to make that many interesting changes from the Oblivion/FO/NV model.  How can it, when it has inferior Consoles to hold it back?

[Cheese]

Again, TES had dragons anyway, it's a part of the lore. It's just necessary to continue the main storyline.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Again, TES had dragons anyway, it's a part of the lore. It's just necessary to continue the main storyline.

Not that being part of the lore means anything to Bethesda these days.  Oblivion's plot and setting were one huge ret-con. A ret-con to make the world far less unique so that it would appeal to more people.  And they removed flight so they wouldn't have to worry about taking that into account in level design.  And they fucked up just pretty much everything imaginable and yes I can go into specifics but you'd get fall asleep before I finished the list.

The reason Beth keeps dumbing down their games is extremely simple.  The less intelligence required to play, the more people will play.  More Players means more money.

I'm just waiting to read this; "Some people found that the instructions in Oblivion weren't clear enough.  We've taken this criticism to heart and no have even more pop up instructions for quests to make absolutely certain all our players get the fullest experience possible.  Also, we've combined blunt and unarmed skill because no one uses anything but swords and bows anyway.  Also we've removed conversation options completely as some people were quite agonized over which option to choice in dialogue.  Now the conversations will play out in immersible cinematic style without forcing players to make difficult choices.  Also, there are now more minigames including a picking flowers minigame and a staring at trees minigame.  Also Radiant AI has been vastly improved.  How vastly improves?  Well that would ruin the surprise.  But trust us, it'll be awesome." 

Seriously do they even still have a Speech skill?

[scriver]

I liked the ability to make up your own totally unique class.  My favorite build was a "Treasure Hunter" like Locke from Final Fantasy 6.  It pisses me off quite a bit that we all have to be "Dragonborn" in Skyrim.  Isn't that the same new class that D&D purists hated that got put 4th edition?

I really don't think the "class" will be Dragonborn. That's seems to be just a title, like "Nerevarine" or what have you.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Or Chief Errand Runner if you're talking about Oblivion.

[Glowcat]

I really don't think the "class" will be Dragonborn. That's seems to be just a title, like "Nerevarine" or what have you.

There's also supposed to be new special abilities called 'Dragon Shouts' or somesuch which can be acquired due to being Dragonborn. It is definitely not a class though.