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[Sordid]

Wait, what do you have against six-limbed dragons?

Two things, actually. Firstly, and this is just a minor point, all vertebrates everywhere ever are four-limbed. But it's a fantasy creature, so whatever.
More importantly, I dislike them because they're never ever done right. They're always bulky and heavy, very obviously designed as quadrupedal land animals that got a pair of wings attached to the back as an afterthrought. They just don't look believable. The wings are always way too small to generage enough lift to hold the massive animal aloft, and there's never any supporting structure for them. The wing limb itself is always too thin and usually isn't supported by anything. An extra pair of forelimbs would mean an extra pair of pecs and shoulder blades, which you never ever see. Take a look at this one: http://www.sff.net/people/laresnick/Clip%20Art/red-dragon.jpg That's actually one of the better ones, but even in this example the wings are way too close to the front legs to be able to actually move properly. And while they do have some muscle on them, it's nowhere near enough, they're thinner than even the front legs. It takes those four massive, pillar-like legs to hold the bulk of the animal, but only a pair of much thinner wing limbs can accomplish the same task? I just can't suspend my disbelief at the sight of that.
Now I do realize even four-limbed dragons wouldn't actually be able to fly, but they're at least a bit more plausible.

Also, one of those scans shows skills, and alteration is still in along with the rest of the magic skills from Oblivion (destruction, illusion, conjuration, alchemy, and restoration). And a new "enchanting" skill it looks like. The one on the far right is hard to see, but it looks like it begins with "staf".

Aw crud. So basically the "mysticism is gone" thing should've been more like "mysticism's been renamed to enchanting". That's brilliant.

[Sensei]

Naw, they wouldn't do that. Enchanting might have some mysticism stuff in it but it may well also recharge/modify items like in Morrowind.

[nenjin]

Wow, is it 2006 in here? Because I swear it's like reading Oblivion's early hype.

Bethesda, the company that shamelessly does what they've done before even when it hasn't worked.

They fact they haven't re-dubbed the Radiant system as something else just kind of reinforces that.

Still, who isn't looking forward to finding random dead people in the city and not caring why they got there?

[ECrownofFire]

Wait, what do you have against six-limbed dragons?

Two things, actually. Firstly, and this is just a minor point, all vertebrates everywhere ever are four-limbed. But it's a fantasy creature, so whatever.
More importantly, I dislike them because they're never ever done right. They're always bulky and heavy, very obviously designed as quadrupedal land animals that got a pair of wings attached to the back as an afterthrought. They just don't look believable. The wings are always way too small to generage enough lift to hold the massive animal aloft, and there's never any supporting structure for them. The wing limb itself is always too thin and usually isn't supported by anything. An extra pair of forelimbs would mean an extra pair of pecs and shoulder blades, which you never ever see. Take a look at this one: http://www.sff.net/people/laresnick/Clip%20Art/red-dragon.jpg That's actually one of the better ones, but even in this example the wings are way too close to the front legs to be able to actually move properly. And while they do have some muscle on them, it's nowhere near enough, they're thinner than even the front legs. It takes those four massive, pillar-like legs to hold the bulk of the animal, but only a pair of much thinner wing limbs can accomplish the same task? I just can't suspend my disbelief at the sight of that.
Now I do realize even four-limbed dragons wouldn't actually be able to fly, but they're at least a bit more plausible.

So your problem isn't exactly with the dragons themselves, it's the art style?

I have to agree with you then, if you're saying anything like that. Too many small wings, too many strange skeletal and muscle structures. Far too many people try to make dragons a BIG SCARY MONSTER, when in reality, they should be closer to... human size, maybe. The law of cubes (I forget what it's called, but multiply a dimension by X, volume is cubed, and surface area is squared) is the main enemy of a large flyer. Nobody ever said dragons had to be HUGE. It certainly makes them LOOK impressive, but when they couldn't even exist that large, it's just ridiculous.

But hey, maybe the planet that they're on just has less gravity or something, right?

[Dagoth Urist]

Or that they are much lighter due to the gaseous contents of their bellies/glands/lungs; that makes them capable of 'breathing' fire? If they spit too much flames all around, it'll reduce the contents, leaving them stranded on firm ground for the immediate future!

Or, whatever, you know... (I agree wholeheartedly with Shadowrun using dragons correctly after having read Dunkelzhan's will!)

[Sordid]

So your problem isn't exactly with the dragons themselves, it's the art style?

I have to agree with you then, if you're saying anything like that. Too many small wings, too many strange skeletal and muscle structures. Far too many people try to make dragons a BIG SCARY MONSTER, when in reality, they should be closer to... human size, maybe. The law of cubes (I forget what it's called, but multiply a dimension by X, volume is cubed, and surface area is squared) is the main enemy of a large flyer. Nobody ever said dragons had to be HUGE. It certainly makes them LOOK impressive, but when they couldn't even exist that large, it's just ridiculous.

But hey, maybe the planet that they're on just has less gravity or something, right?

Yeah, pretty much. They still look odd and unreal, but like I said, I could go with that.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I don't think it necessarily precludes them from being huge. I mean, maybe they have super-strong bones and muscles that actually enable them to be this big. Plus some of the flying reptiles from the age of dinosaurs were pretty damn big even without those. It's more the disproportion between the wings and the rest of their bodies. It's not the inconsistency with the external reality (which isn't there at all, given that it's a fantasy fiction), it's the internal consistency within the concept itself. Look at a bird. Does a bird have thick, heavily muscled legs and tiny, spindly wings? No, it's the other way around. It's got huge pecs for flapping the large wings and short, spindly legs. Most dragons are build like a land animal, not a flying animal.
Also, this has just made me want to draw a 'realistic' dragon. I think I'll get on that tomorrow.

Nah, wouldn't go for the gravity thing. Everything else is normal, in a world with less gravity you'd expect significant differences in pretty much everything.

[Kitsunin]

I really have no problem with the portrayal of huge unrealistic dragons, I mean, we are talking about fantasy, right?  If people can shoot fire from their hands then who's to say a dragon isn't using magic to fly.  What I do have a problem with, is when these dragons aren't intelligent, if they are smart enough to use magic they better damn well be smart enough to realize they get more out of controlling a town than just burning it to a crisp.

That's my personal taste, though, I like dragons that can talk, strategize, maybe they can even change into a human form.  Obviously though, this is pretty far from the fantasy norm, dragons are obviously big flying brutes that enjoy nothing but destroying things.

[Sordid]

If they're using magic to fly (and why not, there are levitation spells), then what do they need wings for at all? Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it's okay for it to not make any sense.

[Fayrik]

It's a style thing, as CrownofFire said:

Far too many people try to make dragons a BIG SCARY MONSTER-

The wings are imposing. Seeing a dragon fly without wings just isn't scarey.

Of course, I just have to mention a memory I have of a film I watched when I was -really- young. This aciedemic guy gets teleported back into a realm of myth and turned into a dragon, then has to learn how to -be- a dragon. He spends the whole time trying to work out how all the magicy stuff works.
The nice part was that the dragons in question used hydrogen to reduce their bodyweight, through special glands. They simply breathe it out and ignite it to decend from the sky.

Though... I can't leave this topic without pointing out the other, utterly overlooked alternative here.
I'm part of an RP group, and my character is a dragon. One which cannot breathe fire, or fly.
Kinda like one of these guys... But perhaps more elegant.

[Sordid]

The wings are imposing. Seeing a dragon fly without wings just isn't scarey.

I have to disagree. If I don't find them believable, I don't find them a credible threat. Kinda like a horror film where you can tell the monster is just a puppet. You know it's not real because it doesn't look right, and subsequently you're not afraid. Now a dragon without wings, that's just creepy. It's impossible too, but in a good way. Tiny wings are a lame and inadequate justification for the beast's ability to fly. But a dragon that deliberately makes no apologies, offers no explanation, that I'd find interesting.
On a related note, a sketch I made some six years ago along these lines: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sordid/Void_Serpent.jpg

[Rex_Nex]

I would enjoy seeing a Void Serpent in a game. As a boss, where you only see him slithering through the air for a few glimpse in a cutscene, tripping you, and then having your player get back up only to see the gigantic demon-serpent's mouth roaring just inches from the first-person viewpoint.

Queue end cutscene, The Fury-esque boss battle GO.

[ECrownofFire]

I really have no problem with the portrayal of huge unrealistic dragons, I mean, we are talking about fantasy, right?  If people can shoot fire from their hands then who's to say a dragon isn't using magic to fly.  What I do have a problem with, is when these dragons aren't intelligent, if they are smart enough to use magic they better damn well be smart enough to realize they get more out of controlling a town than just burning it to a crisp.

That's my personal taste, though, I like dragons that can talk, strategize, maybe they can even change into a human form.  Obviously though, this is pretty far from the fantasy norm, dragons are obviously big flying brutes that enjoy nothing but destroying things.

This is my big problem with how dragons are used. Always the big dumb scary monster thing. If they are smart enough to use magic, why would they just burn down a village, and why aren't there more good ones? They're always the "pet" of the main villain, but almost never a main villain themselves, and they're almost never NOT evil anyway. The problem with dragons is not so much the physical characteristics as the use of them as a plot device rather than characters.

Changing into a human form is just kind of silly, but I agree with the rest of that.

[Sordid]

I would enjoy seeing a Void Serpent in a game. As a boss, where you only see him slithering through the air for a few glimpse in a cutscene, tripping you, and then having your player get back up only to see the gigantic demon-serpent's mouth roaring just inches from the first-person viewpoint.

Queue end cutscene, The Fury-esque boss battle GO.

Actually the original idea was to have them live in the vaccum of space, hence the name. Void serpent just sounds a lot better than space dragon. But admittedly that's getting quite far from the concept of a dragon. Like I said, it's kind of a lose-lose thing. If you don't innovate, it's boring. If you do, it's not a dragon anymore.
Another thing I'd really love to see is a dragon with feathers. Not bird wings, just a coat of feathers on its body. Or just a feather crest, like the fur thing on my serpent. Dragons are basically like dinosaurs anyway (at least in that they're reptiles with legs positioned underneath them, unlike today's reptiles whose legs are always splayed out and who therefore can't stand up properly), and dinosaurs had feathers, so why the hell not? Fortunately it looks like I'll get this wish with Team Ico's next game. Can't wait.

[Rakonas]

Six-limbed or four-limbed, there's not supposed to be any science, they're just goddamn dragons. They're made of magic more than nearly every other creature. Their ability to fly stems not from their wings, their firebreath stems not from their mouth, and their ability to impregnate every creature in existence stems not from their loins.

[Tilla]

ITT Complaining that a game has unrealistic dragons.