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[Javarock]

Ya know, I just realized why I love Bethseda games....  (Receant ones)

PLAYING WITH THE CORPSES :O

[Sensei]

Maybe in Skyrim you'll be able to hide bodies. :p

[Boksi]

Boss scales to your level if you are above the level he is set to. He will always be a challenge. Bosses for dungeons and stuff can have a hard upper limit to how much they will scale up. They never scale down to your level.

So a boss would be, for example, level 6-9? A level 1 character would get crushed, while a level 23 would crush the boss in turn.

[Sordid]

I suggest level-scaling BIG plot points. You know, like a final boss or something. You don't want to get to the end boss and be screwed over because you didn't level enough, do you?

I do. And everything leading up to the boss shouldn't be scaled so that you know what you're getting into and will get screwed if you continue.

Exactly. I like a sense of danger in games that involve fighting, if everything is scaled then that sense is gone. Plot quests come in a sequence, so if the previous one was really really hard, chances are the next one will be impossible unless I level up some first. That's all that's needed to make sure an intelligent, thinking player doesn't find himself in over his head in the final battle. In short, please don't dumb down my RPGs. I'm not asking for it to be turned into Nethack so that you have to spend ten years of your life dying one stupid death after another before you beat it for the first time, but the opposite extreme is just as bad.
"Oh you don't want to get to the end boss and be screwed over because you didn't level enough, do you?"
Well actually yeah, I do. If a player is stupid enough to go confront the boss without adequate preparation, the boo hoo, that's their sodding problem.

Although this discussion is mostly moot, given that Bethsoft's games generally don't have a final boss.

[Duke 2.0]

 Granted you could kill Dagoth Ur at level 1, but it's... odd.

[Javarock]

I suggest level-scaling BIG plot points. You know, like a final boss or something. You don't want to get to the end boss and be screwed over because you didn't level enough, do you?

I do. And everything leading up to the boss shouldn't be scaled so that you know what you're getting into and will get screwed if you continue.

Exactly. I like a sense of danger in games that involve fighting, if everything is scaled then that sense is gone. Plot quests come in a sequence, so if the previous one was really really hard, chances are the next one will be impossible unless I level up some first. That's all that's needed to make sure an intelligent, thinking player doesn't find himself in over his head in the final battle. In short, please don't dumb down my RPGs. I'm not asking for it to be turned into Nethack so that you have to spend ten years of your life dying one stupid death after another before you beat it for the first time, but the opposite extreme is just as bad.
"Oh you don't want to get to the end boss and be screwed over because you didn't level enough, do you?"
Well actually yeah, I do. If a player is stupid enough to go confront the boss without adequate preparation, the boo hoo, that's their sodding problem.

Although this discussion is mostly moot, given that Bethsoft's games generally don't have a final boss.

Actually to me it seems as if this one might... You know given dragons and you finnaly being the hero

In oblivion it felt as if you were someones servent boy... "Oh save the world!".... I Killed so many people... For no reason and they expected me to save the world where was the "I don't a shit about the world" Option?

[Sensei]

Oblivion and Morrowind and their expansion packs had what were ostensibly final bosses (even if the game didn't end).

[Sordid]

Well not really. In Morrowind the boss is invincible and the objective isn't to fight him but to run past him and destroy the MacGuffin, and in Oblivion the final fight is between the boss and another NPC.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

I suggest level-scaling BIG plot points. You know, like a final boss or something. You don't want to get to the end boss and be screwed over because you didn't level enough, do you?

I do. And everything leading up to the boss shouldn't be scaled so that you know what you're getting into and will get screwed if you continue.

Exactly. I like a sense of danger in games that involve fighting, if everything is scaled then that sense is gone. Plot quests come in a sequence, so if the previous one was really really hard, chances are the next one will be impossible unless I level up some first. That's all that's needed to make sure an intelligent, thinking player doesn't find himself in over his head in the final battle. In short, please don't dumb down my RPGs. I'm not asking for it to be turned into Nethack so that you have to spend ten years of your life dying one stupid death after another before you beat it for the first time, but the opposite extreme is just as bad.
"Oh you don't want to get to the end boss and be screwed over because you didn't level enough, do you?"
Well actually yeah, I do. If a player is stupid enough to go confront the boss without adequate preparation, the boo hoo, that's their sodding problem.

Although this discussion is mostly moot, given that Bethsoft's games generally don't have a final boss.

Actually to me it seems as if this one might... You know given dragons and you finnaly being the hero

In oblivion it felt as if you were someones servent boy... "Oh save the world!".... I Killed so many people... For no reason and they expected me to save the world where was the "I don't a shit about the world" Option?

But then you wouldn't get to hear their celebrity voice actors talking at you and watch their shoddy cutscenes.

[Duke 2.0]

Well not really. In Morrowind the boss is invincible and the objective isn't to fight him but to run past him and destroy the MacGuffin, and in Oblivion the final fight is between the boss and another NPC.

There is a dude you need to kill in Morrowind before you can run past him again and kill the macguffin, and he does have some nasty attacks. But with the right mixture of drugs, enchantments and beverages you can kill him with one strike. Or had an older version where swinging a lockpick would kill things.

[Fayrik]

I have to chip in, I really don't like the idea of everything not scaling.
Sure, somethings aren't too hard for you, but I don't want to turn around at level 30 and see a level 1 area still.
I find it so irritating when these RPGs have an option to just grind until you're so powerful you can finish the entire storyline in about 10 minutes.

Besides, I found Oblivion's scale system was fantastic. Games are supposed to start easy then get harder. Not the other way around.

[Sordid]

Well not really. In Morrowind the boss is invincible and the objective isn't to fight him but to run past him and destroy the MacGuffin, and in Oblivion the final fight is between the boss and another NPC.

There is a dude you need to kill in Morrowind before you can run past him again and kill the macguffin, and he does have some nasty attacks. But with the right mixture of drugs, enchantments and beverages you can kill him with one strike. Or had an older version where swinging a lockpick would kill things.

Well yeah, but that's only because Morrowind can't really do invincibility, he just heals super fast. It's not that you can take him down with one strike, you have to take him down with one strike. If you don't reduce his hitpoints to zero in one hit he just heals up before you can take another swing. He's supposed to be invincible, it's just due to technical limitations that he's not.
Also, you do not need to kill him. You don't need to engage him at all, just run straight past him, jump down onto the bridge, and whack the heart.
(tip: walk backwards when you approach the heart - you'll see that the boss teleports onto the bridge when you get close to it; it makes absolutely no difference what you do in the room, the moment you approach the heart he's on you)

I have to chip in, I really don't like the idea of everything not scaling.
Sure, somethings aren't too hard for you, but I don't want to turn around at level 30 and see a level 1 area still.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that. But I would actually like to have the option of going back to level 1 monsters and wiping the floor with them. Release some of that frustration the little buggers gave me when I was low level myself.

Besides, I found Oblivion's scale system was fantastic. Games are supposed to start easy then get harder. Not the other way around.

Really? Because that's exactly where Oblivion totally failed. Kvatch is impossible if you go there when you're low level (ie. when you're told to go there). Go there at too high a level, though, and you'll be fighting half a dozen deadroths or worse at once. And towards the end I was just walking through the streets of the burning city and one-shotting dremoras left and right. No balance in that game at all.
Also, "games are supposed to start easy and then get harder"? And you play Dwarf Fortress, do you?

[Virtz]

I have to chip in, I really don't like the idea of everything not scaling.
Sure, somethings aren't too hard for you, but I don't want to turn around at level 30 and see a level 1 area still.
I find it so irritating when these RPGs have an option to just grind until you're so powerful you can finish the entire storyline in about 10 minutes.

Besides, I found Oblivion's scale system was fantastic. Games are supposed to start easy then get harder. Not the other way around.

Games aren't supposed to punish you for doing what's seemingly a good decision. It's like having an FPS where if you pick up a minigun, every next enemy you encounter will have a minigun. There's zero reason to level up in Oblivion. You basically go from "so powerful you can finish the storyline in about 10 minutes" to "whack each enemy monotonously for 10 minutes".

[Fayrik]

Really? Because that's exactly where Oblivion totally failed. Kvatch is impossible if you go there when you're low level (ie. when you're told to go there). Go there at too high a level, though, and you'll be fighting half a dozen deadroths or worse at once. And towards the end I was just walking through the streets of the burning city and one-shotting dremoras left and right. No balance in that game at all.
Also, "games are supposed to start easy and then get harder"? And you play Dwarf Fortress, do you?

Hey. I said I liked the scaling system, not the balance. Or the execution of the scaling system.

And yes, I do play Dwarf Fortress. Or, did. It's such a pain to run on this computer.
The game is difficult to learn, but it never gets any easier.

Games aren't supposed to punish you for doing what's seemingly a good decision.

...Now, inturn, I have to ask. Do you play Dwarf fortress, Virtz?

[Virtz]

Games aren't supposed to punish you for doing what's seemingly a good decision.

...Now, inturn, I have to ask. Do you play Dwarf fortress, Virtz?

Yes. The game never scales to your level. Neither does it react to valid decisions by kicking your teeth in. It let's you do that to yourself.